An NFL/CFL Comparison and the Voting of Armchair GM Users

You have all heard of bias in the media and this forum is no different. Unlike the Main Stream Media (MSM), Armchairgm is not biased politically, but rather it is biased towards US sports versus the rest of the world.

Alex and I have had this discussion before. We are both long time users that are big time fans of non-US sports. I don’t know Alex’s feelings on this, but I really do like US sports. However, it is the CFL that is my passion.

For the past several months, I have been editing and updating the player pages of CFL teams. Some of the player pages have been edited, already, by other users, before I get to them due to their experience in the NFL. The only thing irritating in this is that these players are categorically listed as retired players and the back editing of the biography that is needed to be done. The previous users add the line "(This player) played for the (team/teams) for their entire career." This quote and the category listing are added to a page even if there is clear evidence that the player is currently playing in the CFL. I would suggest that the "retired category" be removed on future edits (where evidence of CFL experience is evident). Also, I suggest that the quote contain the addition "their entire NFL career."

But, all of that aside, it is the rankings of CFL players versus NFL players that really perplex me. For me to say something to everyone is easily dismissible, but to see a side by side comparison is something else. By comparing player stats from members of both leagues in a head-to-head match-up, I hope to help change some of the voting habits of Armchair GM users in regard to CFL players. In this comparison, I will pair up two quarterbacks, two running backs, and two receivers. For these comparisons, I am basing this on total seasons played in their respective leagues and the recorded stats for their position.

First, I want to look at running backs. For this, I am going to look at two retired backs. Walter Payton represents the NFL and Mike Pringle represents the CFL. As you can see, each player played in their respective leagues for 13 years. Mike Pringle played in two fewer games, had 876 fewer carries, averaged 1.2 more yards, and had 15 more touchdowns than Payton.

Because of Walter's popularity, name recognition and the fact that he is an NFL player, he has received 406 votes from ACGM users for a 4.46 average. Pringle has received just two votes. One, a five vote from me, and a single point from someone else for an average of 3.00. How can a user give Pringle one star despite the numbers? I just don't get the understanding of the vote.

Next, I want to look at receivers. In this example I will use Cris Carter for the NFL and Milt Stegall for the CFL. Although the number of seasons are not equal, I think that it is a fair comparison between players. Neither is Jerry Rice, but no one can compare to him anyway. Cris had 3 years more experience, 49 more total games, and 276 more catches, but he had 11 less touchdowns, 796 less yards, and 5.2 less average yards.

In this instance, Milt has received more ACGM votes than has Cris. Milt has 104 votes for a 3.71 average. Cris has received 103 votes for an average of 4.13. Pretty close numbers, yet the CFL player is still down to the NFL player for doing the same job, just a different league.

Finally, I want to look at two quarterbacks, Dan Marino for the NFL and Damon Allen for the CFL. No NFL quarterback has played for the same number of seasons as has Allen in the CFL. The closest that anyone has come, to 23 seasons, was Johnny Unitas at 18 seasons.

The stats listed for Marino are his passing stats only, we all know that he wasn't the most mobile quarterback. For the comparable rushing stats for a quarterback, I am going to use Randall Cunningham as he was the best rushing NFL quarterback.

Really, there is no comparison to Damon Allen, even amongst the best NFL quarterbacks. Yet, Marino has received 157 votes from ACGM users for an average of 4.34 and Cunningham has received 87 votes for a 3.85 average. Compare these to the 18 votes for Allen with a 2.89 average.

One argument, that I have heard, is the quality of play and the quality of talent between the two leagues. I can understand the argument against the CFL. However, a true comparison of the leagues is a bit difficult. This is somewhat like comparing a "Granny Smith" apple to a "Fuji" apple. Both are apples, yet they are different. Players can play in each league due to the similarities, yet they are two separate games.

Another argument is that the NFL is the best league and what’s more, that it is the original league (of football as we think of it versus rugby). The term “the best” is entirely subjective. The best what? Best paid? Best watched (in US markets)? Best players? For the argument of the original game, it is total fiction. Organized football began in the US in 1869 while football began in Canada in 1861. Let us not forget that the CFL Championship game just held its 95th Grey Cup.

So, judging by the above stats, is it fair to say that the CFL players are getting the short end of the stick in terms of Armchair voting? The next time that you jump on to the site and decide to vote for CFL players, I would hope that you would judge the player by his stats and what he has accomplished in the CFL. Remember that Canadian Football is not American Football and its players should be judged by what they did in their own league.

SSreportersLegend

632 days ago

Score 4

I wish I could vote for this 150 times. Best article you've ever written E!

I guess the reason it's hard to compare the CFL and NFL is the field, the fact that you don't need to be big and burly, the players are faster, the CFL is a more passing friendly league.

But you have a point, CFL players never get the respect they deserve, and these stats should change people's minds about calling this league a "NFL rejects" league.

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 5

Thanks, SSR. I worked for a long time on this article.

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SSreportersLegend

632 days ago

Score 1

No problem, I also have a long article coming up, so see it by Friday.

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Cougar2000All-American

632 days ago

Score 3

Way to go, Erooster! There was a guy from my hometown that played in the CFL. He went to the Catholic high school that I almost attended. I would have been two years behind him (he graduated in 1974).

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KelsdadAll-Star

632 days ago

Score 2

Great article, E!

At the risk of sounding flippant, the rule differences between the leagues, especially offensively, turn borderline NFL players into Hall of Famers. Guys who can't play in the NFL go to Canada, not the other way around.

Put a link on a comment for us E, we'll all vote for Pringle.

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SSreportersLegend

632 days ago

Score 0

Because in the CFL, you don't need 50 awards and scholarships to play.

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 2

There is a link for Pringle in the article, or you can go to Mike Pringle

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KelsdadAll-Star

632 days ago

Score 2

Done!!

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SSreportersLegend

632 days ago

Score 2

I gave Pringle a 5 rating a ways back. He is one of the best...:)

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 0

Thank you both for voting fairly on the player.

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Ccampbell34All-American

632 days ago

Score 0

5 here also

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Taytay 24All-American

632 days ago

Score 2

All good points Erooster. I suppose in some cases players are being docked for being in the CFL. I haven't rated any of these players myself, but I would tend to knock them down slightly--if they were that good, they would be in the NFL, right? And yes, I realize my NFL bias is showing.

But for the most part, I think the CFL is a victim of the "points for votes" system. I would imagine that many of the low votes are coming from people who are trying to rack up some cheap points. Your example of Mike Pringle seems to be an obvious case. Clearly, someone was running through the names and thought "Mike Pringle? Never heard of him. One star." And that's what sucks about the point system.

And obviously granny smith apples are better.

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SSreportersLegend

632 days ago

Score 2

Haha, when I vote for points I give everyone a 5.:)

if they were that good, they would be in the NFL

Who said that these players would be interested in the gigantic monopoly that is the NFL?

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Taytay 24All-American

632 days ago

Score 0

$$$

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 2

One of my points in this article is this: Let's say that the NFL players are in the "A" group and the CFL players are in the "B" group. Users are using the "A" group standards to vote for "B" players. Vote for "B" players based on what they do in the CFL, not for what they can't do in the NFL.

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SSreportersLegend

632 days ago

Score 0

Money isn't everything to these CFLers ya know.

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Taytay 24All-American

632 days ago

Score 0

I knew you would continue to dispute this.

Are there some players in the CFL who prefer to stay in their league? Probably. But the vast majority would jump to the NFL in a heartbeat if they had the chance.

They would do it for the same reason that a high school recruit would rather go to a D1 school, a CEO would rather run a Fortune 500 company and a politician would rather be in a federal office than the local city council.

Because that's where it's at.

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Taytay 24All-American

632 days ago

Score 0

Erooster, I agree to an extent. But take an extreme example: I was a pretty mean first baseman in little league, but I wouldn't expect a page to go up for me here with a five star rating based on my performance in 'Z' competition. I think a slight downgrading for league, generally speaking, is acceptable. The one star vote for Pringle, however, is absurd.

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KelsdadAll-Star

632 days ago

Score 4

Holy fack!! Damon Allen played 23 years as a QB!!! That's ridiculous!! He gets my five!

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 0

He is still an active player and is looking to compete next season for the Toronto Argonauts in his 24th year.

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Cougar2000All-American

632 days ago

Score 0

By the way, Erooster... the player's name was Ben Zambiazi. He played college football at Georgia and then went to the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Not sure how many years he played.

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 0

http://www.g...iasi.Ben.htm

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 0

There is great quote from Ben, "It's a league that allows undersized players to overachieve."

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RomiezzoLegend

632 days ago

Score 1

I have been dying to watch a CFL game. I can't get it anywhere in Kuwait. They probably don't even know what CFL is. Jeez! Once again, great article, Erooster.

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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer

632 days ago

Score 3

I'm not going to engage in a debate over whether or not the CFL deserves equal attention to the NFL.

For me, that is a moot point.

The argument presented here should really extend in the direction that the regular users here should be reading and critiquing each other's work for the sake of improving writing styles. Many here aspire to write professionally. A big part to the development of such a goal is the help of one's peers providing feedback.

Endless comments on topics concerning fandom of particular teams is fun and of course helps everyone here blow off a little steam from the day to day grind. But at times, it seems to supplant perhaps a higher purpose that could be achieved here at the 'Chair.

For example, Intermat wrote a tremendous article that directly related to the goals of nearly every member here. That should have received the due attention of nearly the entire community. If you have not yet read his article, I suggest doing so at your earliest convenience.

Perhaps a suggestion to the founders would be to permit an "Editor's Pick" to be presented somewhere on the front page and give others an opportunity to read the selected article. Far too many high quality contributions slide off the front page to do either "timing of when it was submitted" (such as 2 AM - not fair to international contributions) or lower interest in a particular topic (such as CFL, wrestling, snooker, etc.)

Nice work Erooster.

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JuTMSY4Legend

632 days ago

Score 2

I understand your comparison Erooster, but there's a fundamental flaw...here's an example:

Doug Flutie, from what I know, was a good (Great?) CFL QB...but in the NFL he was average and only for a few years (well, better than Rob Johnson)...so what is the fair rating on flutie?

And, while this is a bit elitist, the NFL's level of talent is higher than the CFL, so really Flutie isn't all that good...

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Ccampbell34All-American

632 days ago

Score 0

Doug Flutie was more than an average quarterback, considering he played most of his years in his late 30s and still managed to get the Bills to the playoffs.
Flutie, Jeff Garcia, and others have proven CFL success does not equate to an average NFL career

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 1

What is your opinion of Warren Moon? He was a Hall of Fame quarterback in both leagues.

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SSreportersLegend

632 days ago

Score 0

The CFL should also be given credit for giving blacks the chance to play professional football in their desired positions. Warren Moon didn't get drafted, and I believe they wanted him to play WR.

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TylersaltAll-Star

632 days ago

Score 0

I think the problem doesn't stem from any inherent bias, just that it's much more difficult to follow the CFL from the states for the would-be casual fan b/c of it's distinct lack of anything resembling "coverage" of the actual games. I, for one, actually have no idea when the CFL's season is! I guess that's another goal of the 'Chair -- to improve the exposure of these so-called "non-mainstream" sports. Great job, erooster.

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 0

The season, this year, starts Thursday June 12 with the Grey Cup being held on Sunday November 23.

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CheezerAll-Star

632 days ago

Score 1

Not trying to be confrontational here Roo, just trying to understand. In the comments, you say that the CFL players should be evaluated against other CFL players not NFL players, yet in your article, you compare the CFL players to NFL contemporaries.

I’m not an expert on CFL football, merely because I have no opportunity to watch it. (Believe me, I watched NFL Europe for years. I love football that much. ) Isn’t the CFL field longer and wider than the NFL field? Don’t they get 3 downs instead of 4 in the CFL? My point is the CFL game is set up for spread offenses and a more offensively wide open style of play. As a result, the CFL player will have “better” statistics relative to an NFL player.

If the rules are different, the stats aren’t comparable.

All-in-all an outstanding article. I agree completely that the voters give unfair weighting to the NFL. It’s hard to vote on players in a league whose rules you don’t understand. So I recommend that people either become knowledgeable or not vote on that particular player.

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CheezerAll-Star

632 days ago

Score 2

Dan,

We need a section of the encyclopedia set aside for game rules. That way, people who don't know a sport can just look it up.

Cricket? Snooker? Curling? Canadian Football?  :-D

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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer

632 days ago

Score 1

I started this a while back. But they're all copyrighted, so we can't. So you need to write to the organisation involved before putting the rules up here. I can't believe you can copyright a sport's rules.

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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer

632 days ago

Score 0

Well, I can believe it... it's happened. What I mean is, it's daft.

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EroosterMajor Leaguer

632 days ago

Score 0

Your summarization of the league is correct and comparisons are difficult. However, one point of the article is that users apply NFL standards to CFL players and thus grade them lower.

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Frank StevensonRed-Shirting

632 days ago

Score 0

Does the CFL still NOT have fair catch? That's awesome!

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Cougar2000All-American

631 days ago

Score 0

That's right! They don't have a fair catch, you have to return a punt or kickoff and a missed field goal attempt (it's a rouge - worth 1 point - if you don't).

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Simms1156Div-I Stud

632 days ago

Score 1

I think that if you're in the CFL and you are a good enough, in most cases at least, you want to become an NFL player.

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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer

632 days ago

Score 0

I agree with Erooster completely. Stephen Hendry gets 3.something stars, but he's the best there has ever been. Joe Davis is behind him too. Without him snooker wouldn't exist! He is a 15 time World Champion, and never lost a match in the World Championship. How does that not warrant at least 4*?! The reason it happens, is that when everybody goes on a voting spree, they'll go to a conveniently located list of all the players in a team (for instance). Then, without reading the profile, or researching the players, they'll just vote honestly on the people they've heard of, and vote for roughly the same on the others. And they'd vote down if it's not one of the big 4.

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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer

632 days ago

Score 0

Stephen Hendry - 47 votes and he's under 3.4. How many of those 47 voters know more than "he's a snooker player?" Did they bother to read his profile?

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Anonymous Fanatic #1

631 days ago

Score 2

This was a great article. A couple of things to add.

- Warren Moon was willing to play in the CFL because he could QB as a black player -- something that just wasn't possible in the NFL in the 70s. It was common, according to him (I've heard him interviewed), for black players to be shunted into WR positions even if they were superior quarterbacks. Obviously he and Flutie show that the highest level CFL players are competitive with NFL players. Our linemen, of course, wouldn't get a decent college scholarship.

- Ben Zambiazi was a great player -- I'm from Hamilton and he was a true champion and inspiration for the Tiger-Cats. His name is still well-known in Hamilton.

- The CFL does indeed have a longer and wider field, and 3 downs. I actually would love to see NFL players play by CFL rules. Their level of skill by CFL rules would make for an awesome game.

Again, excellent article.

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Anonymous Fanatic #2

631 days ago

Score 0

Love the article, hate the ignorance of americans when it comes to the CFL. The CFL is a great game putting canadians first. Also mike pringles records are even more amazing considering its 3 down football. You dont have that extra down so the running game gets abandoned pretty quickly when things arnt working out.

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