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Who is the Best Leadoff Man: Reyes v. Youk

19
Vote

by user Timothy Moreland(Bball3345)

What I am about to do will be to try to determine who is the best leadoff hitter in the bigs. Along the way, I will make a verdict between Reyes and Youk. When I came upon my answer to the question, I couldn't help but laugh, and I am sure many of you will laugh when you see what the numbers have to say. Let me take you through the process one step at a time.

First, I took the 30 players who had led off an inning the most times this year. Most of these players should be leadoff hitters; although, Hafner happened to be among the group. From there, I decided to give them all a projected 750 Plate Appearances to make it even. Then, I projected out their singles, doubles, triples, home runs, walks, stolen bases, caught stealing, and miscellaneous (any way to get on base such as a hit by pitch).

Adding up all the ways to get on for each batter gives them their total times on base, a key part to the leadoff man's job. If you didn't notice, this would be equivalent to OBP, because I gave them all 750 plate appearances. At this point, Youkilis ranks 2nd behind Hafner, who isn't actually a leadoff man and Reyes ranks 18th. This doesn't tell the whole story, so I took it a step further.

While getting on base is a key part to the leadoff hitter's role, they should also get a more favorable position on the bases. For example, a player who gets on at a high rate, but with all singles, would not be as valuable as a player who got on at a slightly lower rate, but with all triples. It would be easier to score the runner from third than first. Thus, I found each batter's average starting position. A single and walk would be worth one, doubles two, etc. and then divided the sum by the total times on base. Stolen bases were credited the same as a single or walk and a caught stealing canceled out a stolen base. Here, Reyes has a huge advantage to Youkilis. Reyes has the second best starting position, behind Soriano(thanks to his 24 HRs which score him automatically). Youkilis ranked 22nd.

From here, there was one final step. I combined the role of getting on(times on base) and average starting position by multiplying them together. Youkilis would get on 325 times with a 1.38 average starting position for a score of 449. Reyes would get on only 260 times but with a 1.69 ASP for a score of 440. This would rank Youkilis 4th and Reyes 5th, by a rather slim margin. When you account for the fact Reyes has slightly more speed and can, thus, score easier on some hits, the gap narrows. So, after looking at the numbers, Youkilis' advantage of getting on base more often, seems to be almost completely taken away by Reyes' speed and triples.

I made a change to the formula after realizing that Times On Base canceled itself out in the last step. So, I divided the total bases and stolen bases sum by total Plate Appearances instead of Times on Base. Jose Reyes takes a big hit, because he makes far too many outs. The New Results are posted below the original list.

Player	LeadoffScore

Travis Hafner	516

Alfonso Soriano	484

Grady Sizemore	456

Kevin Youkilis	449

Jose Reyes  	440

Gary Matthews	438

Ichiro Suzuki	424

Ryan Freel  	418

Johnny Damon	417

Magglio Ordonez	413

Chase Utley 	413

Curtis Granderson   411

Dave Roberts	410

Rickie Weeks	398

Brian Roberts	391

Hanley Ramirez	385

Felipe Lopez	382

Jamey Carroll	380

Jimmy Rollins	369

Scott Podsednik	369

Craig Biggio	362

Chone Figgins	351

Randy Winn      349

Marcus Giles	332

Cory Sullivan	330

Rafael Furcal	327

David Eckstein	326

Joshua Barfield	316

Craig Counsell	314

Juan Pierre	303

NEW RESULTS(w/ PA instead of times on base)

Player	LeadoffScore

Travis Hafner	232

Kevin Youkilis	195

Ichiro Suzuki	176

Gary Matthews	171

Grady Sizemore	169

Alfonso Soriano	168

Ryan Freel	163

Jamey Carroll	159

Curtis Granderson155

Johnny Damon	153

Jose Reyes	153

Dave Roberts	150

Chase Utley	150

Brian Roberts	149

Rickie Weeks	149

Magglio Ordonez	146

Felipe Lopez	137

Hanley Ramirez	128

Scott Podsednik	126

David Eckstein	123

Craig Biggio	122

Randy Winn	118

Jimmy Rollins	116

Chone Figgins	113

Marcus Giles	110

Rafael Furcal	107

Craig Counsell	106

Cory Sullivan	100

Joshua Barfield	91

Juan Pierre	88

Date

Thu 06/22/06, 7:17 am EST

Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
Awrigh01All-Star
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
Interesting article.
Permalink | Reply
DNLLegend
1241 days ago
Score 2+-
Interesting stuff. I think the unspoken-of factor that leads to Reyes-love is that his OBP and power should improve, while Youk's speed won't.
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Patrickburke1980All-American
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
I absolutely agree with that DNL
Permalink
RoblefkoLegend
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
You should facor in steals also..if reyes singles to leadoff and then steals a base before the next batter finishes his at-bat, it should count just as much as if reyes doubled , according to your formula..
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DNLLegend
1241 days ago
Score 3+-
He did: "Stolen bases were credited the same as a single or walk and a caught stealing canceled out a stolen base."
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ChristofMVP
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
I would take either one over Jimmy Rollins!
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
Anyone notice Chase Utley was a better lead off man than Rollins?!
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Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
This means Utley is hitting behind someone who gets the third out a lot, causing Utley to lead off a lot of innings. Utley usually hits behind Rollins.
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Awrigh01All-Star
1241 days ago
Score -2+-
just shows you how good Grady Sizemore is going to be.
Permalink | Reply
DNLLegend
1241 days ago
Score 2+-
I also wonder if you're really just counting total bases. Times on base * average start position would give you that, no? I mean, a guy with 3 times on base, all doubles, would have a score of 6, which is also the # of total bases he gained. And I'm pretty sure it works that way no matter what.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
Yeah, somewhat, but I also include BB's and SB's as well.
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MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
1241 days ago
Score -5+-
I don't know why you need to do this. It is really very simple. If Kevin Youkilis is the Mets leadoff hitter they are a worse team. If Jose Reyes is on the Red Sox they are a better team. No need for a computer simulator, no need to create an algorithm. Baseball is baseball, and couches, GMS and scouts don't need a computer to tell them that Jose Reyes is a much better player than Kevin Youkuilis. This fascination with Billy Beane and Sabermetrics will die out.
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XinophDraft Pick
1241 days ago
Score -1+-
That's a simplistic analysis at best. There are a whole variety of reasons why I think Youkilis works better for the Red Sox; they wouldn't automatically be better with Reyes. Stats do not tell the whole story. Right now I would not like to have anybody else in that spot besides Youk.
Permalink
JfwiiiLittle Leaguer
1241 days ago
Score 3+-
Any self-respecting sabermetrician also watches games and learns what the scouts have to say. I think 95% of them (myself included) would agree with that. What is fascinating to me is this fixation by many "traditionalists" on attacking sabermetrics without actually advancing their point in any way. Sabermetrics is a valuable tool for baseball analysts, and it will most certainly not be going away anytime soon. Every legitimate business or profession uses statistics to help see what is not always apparent by simply "watching." Baseball is no different.
Permalink
XinophDraft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
I never attacked statistics. I merely pointed out that statistics cannot tell the entire story; nobody with an even basic understanding of sports thinks they do. To rely entirely on stats is as dangerous as being totally dismissive of them.
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
Xinoph, I think his response was more intended toward MJD and his hatred for stats.
Permalink
MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
1241 days ago
Score -3+-
But there is something counter-intuitive to what you are doing. Most rationale baseball fans recognize that Jose Reyes is far more valuable to his team than Kevin Youkilis, yet witht he help of your calculator "you" set out to prove the opposite. My "hatred" for statistics is the way you take something of limited value and importance and make grand pronouncements from it that have no semblance in reality, i.e. Health Bell is an effective major league pitcher and Kevin Youkilis is a better leadoff man than Jose Reyes. The thing that computer geeks forget in their quest to dorkify baseball is that "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics."
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
But MJD, doesn't Bell have a 2.40 ERA with 16 Ks in 15 IP?
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 2+-
"Limited value and importance," like getting on-base and hitting HRs. Who needs those things anyways?
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #1
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
Wow, 16 whole innings pitched? If you add that to his career statistics you might bring his ERA down to 4. By the way, what do you do about the 21 hits and 1.65 Whip?
Permalink
Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
1241 days ago
Score 2+-
It shows how good Soriano is without anyone really noticing. Perhaps he should bat at two or three with all the Home Runs to allow the chance to score a 2 or 3 run Homer rather than a one run Homer. But then who would leadoff?
Permalink | Reply
Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
They're even paid about the same, Youkilis' salary is $323,000 and Reyes' is $330,000.
Permalink | Reply
Bigmac agm
1241 days ago
Score -1+-
yes but i think simply put reyes is an all out better leadoff man but like soriano i think even if he bat 2nd or 3rd he would still be productive go reyes
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JfwiiiLittle Leaguer
1241 days ago
Score 3+-
Pretty good analysis. I might contend that the on-base skill is slightly more important than the slugging skill for a leadoff hitter, but otherwise this tells us quite a bit. I wasn't a big fan of Soriano before this season, but this does make quite the argument for him. More teams would benefit from hitting their best guys higher in the batting order, if for no other reason than to get them more chances.
Permalink | Reply
Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
That is a good point. I think slugging is definitely better lower down in the order. But think about this... Pujols, with his great OBP, would probably be a better leadoff hitter than Reyes; however, Pujols would be a much better #3 or #4 hitter than Reyes. Therefore, you have to bat Reyes leadoff because of how much it would hurt having Reyes hitting cleanup.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
This is a really good article. I think if you add allt he factors together they're even at the leadoff spot, but, and i've said this before. If I were down 1 in the ninth, I'd want Reyes, because he can manufacture.
Permalink | Reply
Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree. Stolen bases are more valuable in late-and-close games, which would make me tend to want Reyes up to bat. However, over the course of a season, I would probably take Youkilis.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
Nail on the head
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #1
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. I'll take Kevin Youkilis if it doesn't matter but Jiose Reyes if it does? Doesn't that prove that the rankings are meaningless? If Youkilis is the "best" leadoff man than shouldn't you want him in the clutch situation?
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
Anyone notice that this pretty much proves that the reds must find a way to play freel every day!
Permalink | Reply
Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 1+-
I wrote an article awhile ago saying the Reds would be better off with Freel than Griffey playing everyday in center and I still stand by that.
Permalink | Reply
Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
I found an error that DNL pointed out. Mainly, I was canceling out Times On Base in my last step. So, instead of average starting position being divided by Times on Base, it is now divided by total plate appearances. The changes put Youk back out in front, which makes more sense to me.
Permalink | Reply
Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
I posted the new results in the article.
Permalink | Reply
Bball3345Draft Pick
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
I bet Cubs fans wish Pierre would retire.
Permalink | Reply
EnyboDiv-I Stud
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
Pirre is a free agent after this year and the Cubs won't bring him back.
Permalink
EnyboDiv-I Stud
1241 days ago
Score 0+-
Great analysis by the way.
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #1
1241 days ago
Score -2+-
Don't you ever look at the crap you are spewing and realize how ridiculous it is? Journeyman Gary Mathews ahead of Jose Reyes? Nobody Jimmy Carroll over Jose Reyes? Couldn't beat out Tony Womack Ryan Freel over Jose Reyes? Your rankings prove how ridiculous your argument is.
Permalink | Reply
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This page was last modified 17:39, 22 June 2006. Content is available under the GFDL.

Categories: Opinions | Jose Reyes Opinions | Kevin Youkilis Opinions | June 22, 2006 | Opinions by User Bball3345

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