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The unacceptable situation in Toronto

17
Vote

by user Barkingclam

It was the same story all over again - but hopefully with a different resolution.

When Shea Hillenbrand exploded in the Jays clubhouse, it signaled the end of his tenure on the club. After all, calling the team a "sinking ship" and almost coming to blows with your manager would end your employment almost anywhere.

So when Ted Lilly got angry on the mound during the third inning of tonight's game against the A's, almost everybody had the same thought on their mind - "Not again!".

(Although, there was a loud, bald man sitting right behind me whose thoughts were elsewhere - like how he felt it was necessary to explain to his kids that the Jays don't matter because they're "Never in the race"... Or to the 20-something guy next to me, who felt the need to talk to his girlfriend about everything - his at-bat music (Golddigger by Kanye West), what the K means on the scoresheet, what's behind that wall with the 200 painted on it... )

But it didn't look too bad - while I could see that Lilly wasn't about to go down without a fight (okay, so maybe he pouted like a kid in house league - it's still a fight, by baseball standards anyway) I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined what would happen next:

John Gibbons came out of the clubhouse with (allegedly) a bloody nose.

That's right - Ted Lilly may have hit his manager - or at least that's the angle that the media's already jumped on to.

For his part, Lilly has said that his behavior was completely unacceptable - and Gibbons has said that the fight never took place... But if indeed John had a bloody nose (from my spot on the foul line, on the A's side of the field, I never saw anything that made me think Lilly was going to hit Gibbons, or even do anything more then sass him) then this is indeed a completely unacceptable situation.

For a team that went into this season with such high hopes - the Jays signed new pitchers, got some big bats and were finally looking like they could contend with the big boys of the AL East - this season has been less then spectacular. We've seen big names go away (Hillenbrand, Eric Hinske). Major players have been gone with injuries (Gustavo Chacin, A.J. Burnett). And some people have just been busts (Josh Towers) or, at best, just hot-and-cold (Casey Janssen). With all the fighting that's been going on, it's no wonder that Vernon Wells wants to leave - if it's this bad in public, imagine how chaotic the clubhouse must get.

So yes, it's not too soon to say the this season is pretty much wrapped up - the Jays are 10 games back of the Yankees as I write this for the AL East lead and are 7.5 (and behind LA, Minnesota and the Red Sox) games back of the Wild Card White Sox. And while it's entirely possible that the Red Sox could go on a 14 game losing streak, the Twins could get stranded on a mountain and the Angels could vanish in Area 51 - the Jays still wouldn't win the Wild Card - and the AL East... Well, let's just say that it's way beyond reach and leave it there since I can't say positive things about the Yankees unless I've had a few drinks first.

It's not as if the season has been a waste, though - the Yankees and the Red Sox have had to whip out really good seasons just to be in the top two spots. Hell, with a little luck the Jays could very well go above the Red Sox in the standings (they're only back by something like 3.5 games). Toronto has finally proven that they can compete with the big boys - and if they can get the clubhouse settled down, Toronto would seem to be a good place for a free agent to land: it's not a media-centre like Boston, where even the smallest details get discussed to death by obsessive fans in the media... And it's not New York, where you're always in the spotlight (for better or worse).

And if Vernon Wells wants out - then maybe the Jays should make a move for a pitcher. I've said it before and I'm going to say it again: get Javier Vazquez. Sure, it's not as if the White Sox want (or need) Wells, but at least put it out there. Try and get Wily Mo Pena as the "Player to be named later" in the Hinske trade. Bring back the Boomer - David Wells. He doesn't have to pitch... But bring him back anyway. He can toss BP, drive the bullpen car or just be a spokesman - just bring him back, please.


Date

Mon 08/21/06, 9:36 pm EST


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ASwaffAll-American
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm still rolling around in my head who shoulders the greatest blame. Ted Lilly certainly needs to be more willing to listen to his manager. If he comes to get you, get off the mound. If you say you want to stay in, and the manager says no, you're not going to win the argument. Best just to leave.


But, players can be expected to be hot-headed at times, especially when they get pulled in the middle of blowing a HUGE lead. Gibbons needs to learn to handle those situations better. Whatever he had to say, it could have waited until the end of the game when both parties had had a chance to cool off. It was handled poorly all the way around, and although Gibbons hasn't had it easy with these guys acting the way they do, I think the Jays need to take a serious look at getting a manager that can handle things with a little more finesse. He's not helping the clubhouse any with this kind of behavior.
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ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1180 days ago
Score 0+-
Somewhere Shea Hillenbrand is laughing.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
1180 days ago
Score 0+-
Maybe he's in San Francisco?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
he went 0-4 last night, I doubt he was laughing too hard
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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
Wall with a 200 painted on it?! I knew ball-parks were shrinking, but gees...
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ASwaffAll-American
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
It's Toronto. They measure in meters.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
It may be safe to say there will be a new manager in Toronto next year.
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The sharkDraft Pick
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
A monkey vs. a flower. Advantage - flower.
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MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
1180 days ago
Score 3+-
I think the blame here has to be on John Gibbons. While Ted Lilly showed up his manager, in general, players don't show up managers they like. It turns out that Hillenbrand was exactly right and Gibbons is the problem. If I were the Jays I would fire Gibbons immediately. You cannot lose your team and continue to manage. There can't be a single Blue Jay who has any respect for him. At the same time, I would designate Lilly for assignment. He is an impending free agent anyway. Take the less than marginal A level prospect you would get for him and cut your ties.
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I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1180 days ago
Score -1+-
I disagree. If you fire Gibbons now, the team gives the power to the players to control the manager situation. I would do nothing at the moment and fire Gibbons at the END of the season bringing up only his managerial W-L record and no player incidents.
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Anonymous Fanatic #2
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
Lilly shouldn't be released, at least without knowing what happened in the tunnel. He was probably pissed that he coughed up such a huge lead more than anything else. And we have no idea what Gibbons said to him as he was walking to the mound. Given Gibbons' history, I wouldn't be surprised if he made the situation worse.


And Gibbons has to go. Yeah, there's no chance at the playoffs, but at the same time, making the clubhouse atmosphere worse by keeping him there when he's the problem isn't going to make things better. There wouldn't be a problem at all if it weren't for the player incidents. The way the pitching imploded was out of Gibbons' hands but the attitude of the clubhouse is definitely something he can control.
Permalink
IcemanvtWaterboy
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
And I made that comment. Stupid not logging in...
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ASwaffAll-American
1180 days ago
Score 2+-
While I don't agree with what Hillenbrand and Lilly have done (there's never a reason to disrespect your manager publicly like that), I don't think that firing Gibbons sends the message that the players get to decide who the coach is. I think firing Gibbons sends the message that they care about the players more than they care about trying to prove they hired the right guy. The players have to know that their employer backs them, and right now, I don't think they see it.
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MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
CPCP, I respectfully disagree with you. This is a manager who has TWICE challenged his players to a fight. He is not fit to be a professional coach at any level and obviously needs anger management. The fact that this fool is coaching a major league team while Wally Backman is out of a job is just silly. Think about the way teams (and the league) react when a player has struck a coach. I can't see why the Jays would keep this guy around for appearences. he is obviously a cancer and a nutbag.
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Bleeding GreenVarsity
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
Gibbons has lost control of that team. He must be fired, not after the season.. right now. It's not letting the players win, it's admitting that this guy has done a terrible job.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1180 days ago
Score 1+-
he hasn't done a good job at all... the Jays have not met expectations under Gibbons. Unacceptable from a Davey Johnson prodigy.
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Jgov05All-American
1179 days ago
Score 2+-
Gibbons needs to go for other reasons as well. Any manager that has underachieved with the kind of talent this team has should be embarrassed.
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BarkingclamVarsity
1179 days ago
Score 2+-
He hasn't really underachieved - the Jays have pretty much been above 500 for the whole season for the first time in what seems like forever (even though it's closer to like 3, maybe 4 years) and the bats are doing their job. It's the pitching: If Burnett and Chacin didn't get hurt, the Jays would have had a great (IMHO, anyway) rotation of Halladay, Burnett, Chacin, Lilly and a fifth guy.
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IcemanvtWaterboy
1177 days ago
Score 0+-
Yeah, what Barkingclam said. It's not Gibbons' fault the rotation imploded like it did. It's Riccardi's fault for not having a backup plan in place. Josh Towers wasn't supposed to explode like he did. But the lack of anything in the minors is probably where the fault lies.


Even so, Gibbons has lost the team. He should be gone by now.
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This page was last modified 12:43, 22 August 2006. Content is available under the GFDL.

Categories: Opinions | Toronto Blue Jays Opinions | Baseball Opinions | MLB Opinions | August 21, 2006 | Shea Hillenbrand Opinions | Ted Lilly Opinions | John Gibbons Opinions | Opinions by User Barkingclam

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