The Ongoing Trials of Barry Bonds: an enigma, wrapped inside a riddle, covered in blissful irony, entwined in the tangled webs we weave.

Im dum. Plane and simpel...

I'm trying to fix it but it isn't working too well right now.

move link on the right hand side of the screen. Fixed now, but thought I'd tell you anyways

Thanks FP

thank you for taking the Slowey trade. Now, if only Joebook wouldn't be such a jerk...

Standing ovation for Tyrone. clap, clap, whistle, clap. I wish I was standing next to you my friend because the drinks would be on me. Just brilliant.

Thanks.

Bowie Kuhn wasn't there when Aaron broke the record, so get over it.

Bowie Kuhn was an ass.

Your right, Bowie Kuehn wasnt there becasue he was a racist bigot. Bud Selig has to be there. As commisioner it is his job to be there for the important milestones wheither or not he likes them.

As commissioner and being the man ultimately responsible for steroids plaguing baseball by turning a blind eye, Bud Selig should be there in person to witness his precious Frankenstein creation completely destroy the integrity of professional sports' most cherished record. Way to go Bud. Way to go Bonds.

Ju man- couldn't have said it better. Cheating in sports in like cheating at school- everyone has done it and continues to do- we just find different ways.

Corked bats, tar, whatever was the old ways, then came the drug phase, now it's who knows what-- maybe it's yelling HA HA at people or squirting Jeter Juice in someone's eyes, stepping on their feet- whatever it takes to get an advantage over the opponent.

I still say let these guys take whatever drug they want-- become machines and hit dingers after dingers off 120 mile per hour pitches-- fine by me.

Kopechcr, for God's sake - Aaron EARNED this record. Bonds CHEATED. Aaron's lifetime achievement is being supplanted by a dishonorable CHEAT. Hank Aaron has shown remarkable CLASS & RESTRAINT. Aaron has absolutely nothing to apologize for and every right to feel anyway he wants about this situation. Bonds is a DISGRACE and DESERVES NO APPLAUSE, NO HURRAH, NO WORSHIP for being a CHEAT (same goes for the others - I will not single out Bonds alone on this situation). To honor Bonds for claiming the Career All Time HR Record is to HONOR the use of steroids. This upcoming event is perhaps the most damning indictment ever against MLB for even allowing this travesty to occur in the first place (by turning a blind eye to the problem for over a decade) and will represent one of the worst moments in professional sports. Perhaps no record will ever be achieved in the future in any sport without skepticism and suspicion of drug enhancement. And that is the greatest shame of all from this entire ordeal of steroid use in baseball.

I'll do by best to throw a battery at him this weekend...

LOL!

I really do think you might be the only one that it reaks of soreloserdom to. He has worked very hard to do what he did. And answer me this. What does him being htere accomplish? What would him talking to Barry do. Records are meant to be broken. He knows this. He might be a little upset that all this controversy is surrounding this chase. The only people that get something out of him being there is the media. They get that feel good moment that they like to contrive. And if he is there, it isnt going to be about Barry anymore. Hank will get asked about how it feels to get passed by Barry, a cheat. It wont be said but hte undertones will be there. You know what, maybe he is being petty. But you would be petty also if someone came along and broke your record that you put so much energy into by taking a shortcut and doing it in a manner that was not repectable. If it was Arod, or Griffey or someone like that there would be no issue. The issue isnt that Aaron is being "petty" about hte record being broken, the issue is about who is breaking hte record.

It is AN ISSUE because Bonds is a CHEAT. How can one be a "sore loser" to a CHEAT?

Bartender, another one for Mr. Briggs, please, and put it on my tab.

Simple. Ignore it. Life moves forward. But it is not an event to embrace or celebrate. There will be no winners once Bonds breaks the Aaron record. And yes, that includes Bonds himself.

Put him on your fantasy team...

I refuse to profit from a player that CHEATS.

You could kill him then...or deflate his head...your choice

The steroid issue is ironically NOT Bonds' biggest worry. His concerns should be the US Federal Government for perjury and the IRS for income tax evasion.

Now that is being a little nieve. He most likely has. There is no reliable test right now for HGH. And that is what he was linked to taking. The stuff that he was allegdgedly not knwoning what he put in his body was HGH. If he was silly enough to take the stuff to begin with, what makes you think that he would stop taking something that cant be tested for just to spite baseball.

Fernando Nieve?

It does not matter which homeruns are "clean" and which were "dirty". Bonds CHEATED. And no, his homerun total SHOULD NOT be considered as the official record. It is a TAINTED statistic.

Tyrone we have argued over this before. He has never tested positive for a drug test. he alledgedly used steriods before it was actually tested for in baseball. Do I think he did it. Yes. Would I like for them to not acknowledge the record. Yes. The fact is until there is actual proof or a failed drug test that prooves he did it while it was illegal, you have no argument. The only reason it matters is that he is going after the Holy Grail of records. If it was anyone else, it wouldnt be that big of a deal...ie Giambi or sheffield. Same set of circumstances, different results.

The "little bit pregnant" argument cannot apply here. Bonds took steroids. Bonds CHEATED.

Bonds confessed to taking the "clear". And we damn well know that was NOT flaxseed oil. Bonds is a CHEAT.

We are arguing semantics. Yes, we know based on alledged sealed courtroom documents. When they are unsealed we can then discuss his using steroids. As it stands right now there is no official document anywhere that we can cite that states he used steroids. I am not trying to be an apologist, but before we completely chastise the guy, wait till all the facts are out. Same thing with the Vick thing and with the Duke lacrosse. Lets not pass judgment till everything is revealed.

The Bonds case is exceptional in the fact that we already know he is a CHEAT. He admitted to using "the clear".

Wasn't Shef, "the cream and the clear?" - I don't know, I'm asking

No, the cream and the clear was Bonds. See Bonds testified that substances didn't work.

Bonds admitted to "the clear". And I am going to assume that posters here are far too intelligent to really believe that Bonds had "no idea" that "the clear" was not flaxseed oil or some other bogus argument. For God's sake, Bonds didn't really notice his own head ENLARGING? Give me a break. The man is a LIAR and a CHEAT.

Thanks TayTay, wasn't sure...

The truely sad thing is that even before he took the steriods, he was a fantastic all around player that would have rivaled Aaron if his career played out as it would have. He didnt need steriods to be a greaet player. The only member of hte 500 homers 500 stolen base club. Perennial gold glove out fielder who hit for power, average, drve in runs, stole bases. He did it all. That wasnt good enough though. That was the sad part. Instead of going down in history as perhaps the greatest player of my generation and possibly on the in the top 10 of all tiem, he has done this and sullied his name and his legacy.

I've read that HGH doesn't really help at all. More of a placebo effect than anything. I will try to find the links where I read this.

I like that Kelsdad!

So do I. He agrees with me.

Tyrone -- you can add it to your user wiki page.

Here is where the comparison gets kind of weird. Barry Bonds pre steriods might have been as good as Aaron. He could do more. Just as good if not better fielder, base runner and all that. Not as good of a power hitter as Aaron but not that far off. Aaron was a very consistant power hitter never getting more then 48 homers in a season if I remember correctly. Barry afterwards was a better all around hitter but was lacking in speed defense and all that other stuff. And we all know the reason was for money and all that. I am not trryting to take anything away from who aaron was as a player. I just feel that barry gets a raw deal when people place his pre steriods career into perspective based on his demenior to the media and people in general and also the tainted view of what he has done after the steriods. There was a pre steriods Barry and many people forget that.

Agreed. Bonds was a great player before steroids. Bonds after steroids is nothing but a CHEAT. And yes, that erases everything done in the past. For example, NASCAR will not allow a driver to win a race by CHEATING on "just 1 mile" and legit for the other 499.

I take it AF#1, you never saw Aaron play? Because you are totally incorrect in your statements of Hank as a player.

This is AF#1 BTW. Your right about me not seeing Aaron. And like I said, I never intended to take anything away from Aaron. Bonds presteroids was a phenominal player and doesnt get the credit he deserves. That was the point I was trying to make.

Bonds chose to tarnish his so-called "pre-steroid" career by taking steroids. Yes, the fact that he CHEATED at any portion of his career negates his credentials as a ballplayer. This is NOT a "little bit" pregnant scenario.

you mean Bonds, right?

This is Jamel speaking. I'm not disagreeing with you Tyrone but what do you want them to do???? Not give him the record? What is your solution?

What did they do to Roger Marris' 61? Yup, just put a big fat * after the number. And when it is revealed "officially" that Bonds was juiced, delete the record and have it restored to its rightful owner - Hank Aaron.

Doesnt make it right. They did. And that was a weird situation. I mean Maris did play more games in a season. He hit his 61st home run on the 162nd game of hte season, ruths season was only 154 games. But hte commisioner at the time was also the main writer for ruth back in the day so he had a vested interest in that record still standing with ruth.

Marris' only "crime" was playing in more games than Ruth in a season to break the record. And yet baseball at that time, declared the * "in the best interests of the game". Obviously, people feel a little differently about that situation now. But this situation is much more consequential. The entire INTEGRITY of how professional sports acknowledges its "records" is at stake here which brings the influence of STEROIDS into the limelight for analysis. Steroids have destroyed the concept for an "even playing field". Acknowledgement of Bonds as the legit holder for this record is counteractive towards the sport's very own credibility.

Tyrone, we are arguing the same point. There was absolutely no real reason to put an asterisk there outside of the ghost writer for Ruth to keep the legend of Ruth alive. It was a completely biased moved. It had nothing to do with the integrity of the game. It was a completely self serving move. And if you invoke that rule for Bonds, you need to invoke it for everyone. Giambi, Sheffield, Sosa, McGwire and anyone that might have done it. Cleamons. Hell, just make all records obtained from 1990 to now a giant asterisk. Is that what you want?

If these records were broken by players who took steroids? Then my answer is YES.

Steroids SHOULD NOT and CANNOT be considered "PART OF THE GAME"! Steroids are ILLEGAL. Steroids go against the very concept of FAIR COMPETITION. You are persisting in a self-defeatist attitude towards an ILLEGAL ACTIVITY that KILLS PEOPLE. This CANNOT be tolerated. This CANNOT be accepted. Best efforts? You seriously think Bud Selig as commissioner has actually shown a "best effort" towards steroids in baseball? With that attitude then why not just suggest Selig to resign (which he should) and hire marketing maverick Vince McMahon as baseball's new commish?

KOPECHCR-- Why has baseball become harder today than it was yesterday???? You still hit a ball with a bat right? Still run around a diamond to first base, second base, third and then home right? Pitchers are stronger, fastballs are faster, but batters are as well. Your argument makes no sense.

TB: propose a way to test for HGH that will not only work but be cost-effective for the business of major league baseball. A way, no doubt, exists, but I think "testing for steroids so that baseball can go back to being 'pure' (and by 'pure', I mean everyone did greenies and speed instead of steroids)" is pretty far behind any number of other medical tests (and, no, I'm not trying to tug at the heartstrings of cancer and AIDS, to name two things ahead of the aforementioned steroids testing). It can't be accepted, agreed, but we're unfortunately stuck in this world of ours and we're not going anywhere fast. And McMahon (and thank you for spelling his name correctly) would bring an interesting je ne sais quois to the game, would he not?

But if we all agree that Bonds wasn't the only person on steroids, then technically, while what he did was wrong, he was on the same playing field as the pitchers, other players, etc...and therefore, the record may not deserve an *.

Just a thought...

Oh and Vince McMahon would ruin baseball...yeah...worse than bud selig...

No, Bonds CHEATED. Not everybody in MLB takes steroids.

I mean, its not foolproof...

It only takes 1 MLB player to refuse taking steroids to declare the playing field tainted and uneven. And no athlete should ever have to be compelled to take an ILLEGAL SUBSTANCE that KILLS to participate in sports.

Today's stadiums are smaller, much smaller in some cases, then the one's Aaron played in, and the pitching is substantially worse. So what's the accomplishment. Aaron would have more homers if he played today.

Bonds could hit 1000 HRs for all I care. Whatever Bonds' final output of HR is irrelevant because the statistic is tainted. The man used illegal enhancing performing drugs. He is a CHEAT.

On the other hand, who knows how many Aaron would have hit in today's era of smaller homer friendly stadiums and pitchers forced to comply with shrinking strike zones? Good point.

The answer is YES. And the fact is that YES the Olympics DO ELIMINATE RECORDS from people testing positive for drug enhancement. I cite Ben Johnson - Canadian 100m Sprinter. I find it DISGUSTING that people are so easy to give up on this battle against steroids. An athlete SHOULD NOT BE OBLIGATED to RISK KILLING THEMSELVES to PURSUE SPORTS at any level in order to compete.

Fact of the matter is...while your position is admittedly noble, most people really don't give a crap. They just want to be entertained. That's why you don't see a bunch of people blowing up about this. There is no public pressure for baseball or any other sport to do anything about it with any policies that have real bite. Virtually all athletes, including the clean ones, keep quiet and continue playing next to juiced players.

I don't agree with assessment. Two journalists risked going to JAIL (and they still could) to bring GAME OF SHADOWS to the American public. This conversation is about preserving the integrity and credibility of athletics. What could be a more important topic to this particular forum than the very legitimacy of sports? I might suggest that the American public is by no means as apathetic to this situation as apparently are many of the posters here at ArmchairGM.

it's what I do...READ MORE AT http://sport...logspot.com/ !! [/shameless plug...]

At least there'd be more money for research...

I once got aids from drinking a beer from my white friend at the bar-- I thought it was mine-- he's gay-- it had the same amount of beer left as mine and I really thought that I put it down over there but nope it was his. Anyway, I drank it and quickly releazed it wasn't mine cause it had that weird "gay" taste (like when you pick up a glass and you just know it isn't yours). Anyway, I tried to spit it out quickly and thought I was okay and didn't catch the gay and AIDS but nope. Anyway, he also did roids and shot it in his penis. That's what I was trying to get at. The AIDS went away and I'm okay now. Oh this is Jamel.

Hey everyone else is acting like a retard here I thought I would just join in-- if you seriously are going to have an argument that roids belong in baseball and to accept it I'm going to share my story about contracting HIV from my friend.

Not all white people are gay, jamel. that's racist and homophobic. I'm a straight white, Ex-Canadian Finnish-American and I don't have gay AIDS OR regular AIDS. I am scared of most black dudes though, because of their huge genitalia, societal anger, the fact that they can dance better than me and wanna sleep with my white wife, and how they're always saying, "You know what I'm sayin?" because it makes me second guessed whether or not I fully grasp what's been said.

I mean, all canadian hockey players say "you know" at least 10 times per interview...

Hey I realize that not all white people are gay-- I know lots of Mexicans who are also gay. They don't have AIDS though-- they have genital warts and herpes-- plus don't most canadians have SARS-- anyway, I don't only want to sleep with white woman I like woman of all color-- except Mexicans cause I don't want sores on my foot long. Peace

Plus, Mexican women have giant, cavernous vaginas that not even a footlong can fill. That's why Mexican men are the best boxers, because of the frustration...

Hey did you notice how I said that the gay white dude was my friend--- same with some mexicans-- see I'm not racist... wide vagina-- isn't that a Curb Your Enthusiam episode-- I wouldn't know about mexican wide vaginas never been in there-- but yeah white vagina are nice.

At least we can all agree on something...

Plus, Mexican men rate just above Asians, but they lack the "jackrabbit" ability, so frustration on the female side execerates the sexual tension, thusly increasing machismo. More machismo = more heart in the boxing ring. Kind of like natural steroids. Jamel, I think it's time for you to write another column.

Hey I once had a white canadian girl use her mouth on my penis- she kind of had a big mouth that was sort of "flappy/floppy"-- nice skills- anyway, is that where south park got the idea from?

Lastly to keep on topic I have noticed that white women love to play with testicals-- so they probably wouldn't be a big fan of steroids-- they love it when a tea bag them.

Machismo-- hum-- but most heavyweights are black-- what do you say about that?

Big Mamas lead to Big boys, what with all the pancakes and chicken n' waffles and trans-fats. Plus, "going upside your head" teaches one how to take a punch at a young age.

You know all black mom do hit their kids really hard on the side of the head-- and you can't screw with a big black momma. Yeah it probably does make us tougher than white kids with white sissy parents.

Plus as you pointed out everything I ate growing up was deep fried- I was heavier when I was 13 than what I am now and I'm around 225 lbs. Anyway, why do you think white woman prefer black penises over white penises-- Did you also know that italian woman have horrible odors down there- why is that-

Lastly, do you think Bonds shot his roids in his penis?

1. White women want punishment and succumb to the myth that black penises are consitently larger than white penises. Plus a lot of white women hate their fathers and think of taking a big black cock as "revenge"

2. Too much garlic

3. Not sure, but if his P.R. folks read this thread I'm sure he'll be giving it a try.

Yeah garlic is pretty strong- it comes out of the pores of the skin everywhere--

Anyway, so you think those 100s of white woman only had sex with me to bother their fathers???? Looks like I win. So, are girls attracted to guys with small balls and big heads??? Like in nature animals are attracted to certain characteristics-- what if this is one of them?? What if all women only want to procreate with men who are on steroids??? We would all have to take steroids in order to have sex-- the person who is on the most roids would get all the ladies-- it could happen I have to go

See you tomorrow for more!

Can someone delete this comment thread? Completely inappropriate.

bother Dan, Pean, or Rob. They're the one's who can do that

Funny thing I noticed Tyler-- you complain about the above and wish it removed however you have contributed nothing to this thread-- humm....

maybe he's mexican, or asian, or on steroids...

Whats your thoughts on this roid thing? Jamel

If men had to take as much steroids as possible to have sex with women, eventually they'd develop "innie" penises, instead of the anatomically correct "outies" and sex would just be a bunch of scissoring all over the place. I'm not down with that. No Way.

Are you a complete retard???? 'Roids don't shrink the penis size they shrink the balls. So if anything the man's balls would pop back into their abdominal cavity (like an undescended testical)and the woman would only see the penis. Perhaps this is a more desirable look than the current elephant look. If so, again men might have to start taking steroids and get that "in look".

True about balls shrinking, but there's also the fact that the pelvic muscles surrounding everything will get bigger and bigger, and grow around the penis (cause it's not made up of muscle tissue) Plus, shrunken balls will deminish the ability to get an erection. So it will end up being "The ongoing Trials of Barry Bonds: a penis, wrapped inside a mound of pelvic muscles, covered in shame, entwined in a tangled web of pubes..."

You are really starting to piss me off.

How an Erection Occurs!! An erection begins in the brain. Physical and/or mental stimulation cause nerves in the brain to send chemical messages to nerves in the penis telling the penile blood vessels to relax so that blood can flow freely into the penis. Once in the penis, high pressure traps the blood within both corpora cavernosa to sustain an erection. This causes the penis to expand, creating an erection.

Erection is reversed when the inflow of blood is stopped and opening outflow channels open, allowing the penis to become soft.

How Does Ejaculation Occur you might ask. Ejaculation, the release of semen at climax, is triggered when the man reaches a critical level of excitement. Sexual stimulation causes nerves in the penis to send chemical messages or impulses to the spinal cord and into the brain. There, more chemical messages are sent back to the penis causing ejaculation.

Ejaculation has two phases -- in the first, the vas deferens, the tubes that store and transport sperm from the testes, contract to squeeze the sperm toward the prostate gland and urethra and seminal vesicles release secretions that make semen. In the second phase, muscles at the base of penis contract every 0.8 seconds and force the semen out of the penis in up to five spurts.

So monkey boy, if anything steroids who only affect the semen part not the erection part. However, woman only have sex to produce babies for perhaps knowing that this would be affected woman wouldn't be attracted to men who are on steroids.

Still, I don't know

But the testicals produce natural testosterone, which is the source of a healthy libido. If testosterone isn't being manufactured in the body, the brain isn't sending the hard-on messages in the FIRST PLACE. I understand how you get horny, but its more of a holistic process than what you describe. Do you still think that shooting steroids into your penis is going to make it look bigger? And who asked about ejaculation? (Although, i think steroids might help with that - maybe make you skeet further or more than 5 spurts)

Fine- let's not argue anymore. Let's just all agree that the Nazi's suck and that THEY RUINED BASEBALL!!!!!

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU GUYS ^^^^^

No...TB had some major and valid points...that might be the difference...

No problems on my end with this discussion on steroids and baseball. Hopefully we can stay on course because it has been quite revealing to me on how others feel about Bonds and the Aaron record. Anyone have a problem with the nature of this discussion?

Yeah, I hope that was clear...No TB, you're on track...Regardless of what I think of your opinion, you've got points and valid ones at that...

I guess my only point, seen above, is that others were doing it as well. Yes, 2 wrongs don't make a right and so on...I'm not defending bonds, I'm not saying its right, or anyone was right, or the fact that he's breaking the record is good, or fair or anything. I think Aaron should be pissed, but I think I a lot of what is happening was taken as..."we'll handle that when we get there..." Well, guess what...Bond is going to break the record...but, you're right its ruining/ruined sports...the rea question is what next...

Its a tough one really...I honestly am not sure...i think bonds deserves an *, but beyond that what should we do? What can we do? CLeaning up baseball should/is happening...but cleaning up the last 20 years or so...that's difficult...

Well said, Ju.

Thanks for helping keep this dialogue on track. And I do think it is a very important topic of discussion for this thread because we are talking about an extreme issue of integrity about sports. For instance, the admins here are discussing an honor code for the webservice. If that level of credibility is desired just to operate the caliber of daily postings of users for a sports blog webservice, then how can a discussion on steroids NOT be prevalent here? And do not get me wrong about Bonds. I AM NOT singling out Bonds as a standout martyr for the steroid era. All of these players (Palmeiro, Sosa, McGwire, Grimsley, Sheffield, Giambi etc.) have absolutely DISGRACED THEMSELVES and THEIR SPORT. As have Bud Selig and the owners of MLB franchises for turning a blind eye. This wall of silence and shifting of insinuating blame from one guilty party to the next cannot and should not be accepted by baseball fans while the very journalists that dared to expose the story are being threatened with jail sentences. If we as fans can no longer agree nor accept that the product on the field is legitimate, then what is the point? Well, baseball then ceases to be a sport and becomes a byproduct of junk entertainment that perverts professional athletes into potentially life endangering 'roided circus freaks. What kind of an attitude and message do we send as baseball fans by declaring a white flag of surrender against these CRIMINALS (it illegal to use steroids in this manner) who are defiling our national past time? Who is left to defend the GAME? How can this issue not be a collective concern at a sports blog such as ArmchairGM? Hank Aaron is not upset about the record being broken. Records are meant to be broken. That is the true nature of sports: set the bar higher and go for it. But it must be done legitimately. Make no mistake that Hank Aaron is upset that the record is being tarnished by a CHEATER. And as a result, this man will not stand pat as have Selig, the owners and other steroid using players by attending a superficial moment in baseball history that forever destroys everything that these records stand and account for. Hank Aaron is the ONLY class act in this disgusting charade who is actually representing principles and morals beyond his own self-needs.

Ju that made too much sense for a thread where people are defending the use of steroids in baseball--- well done---

Bonds = douchebag

• should be beside record

baseball shoud not equal baseball mexicans have wide vaginas

What's left to discuss?

Yes, your post did succeed to generate a sincere discussion about a REAL issue of merit.

The long windy post was mine.

I think a lot of people here contributed.

I care about the game. Sincerely. And I think a lot of others here do so also. It is okay to disagree on issues WITHIN the game (such as the Yankees making the playoffs, Clemens returning, Zambrano beating up Barrett, etc.) but I will never side with a permissive minority that kowtows to the CHEATERS that are knowingly and purposefully destroying baseball's integrity for self-gain at the expense of men who built the game such as Hank Aaron. Never.

Tyrone. Serious question. Guys like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire-- all cheats, all steroid junkies, all douchebags. However, baseball was dying and lost tremondous popularity. Sosa and McGwire brought that back as people wanted to see dingers. They did it on roids no question. MLB let them do it and I honestly believe encouraged them. Now this should never had occured but it did- you can't change the past so let's not debate that. Pretend you were in their shoes (and don't say I wouldn't have done the roids in the first place as that is the easy way out of this)what would you do if you? In one way I believe in a code-- to protect the game and the players in it- why I think Canseco is the biggest douchebag alive. What should they do? Confess their sins as most people believe they did steroids in the first place? If this occurs the courts won't let them only "out themselves". Or remain silent like they have and get ridiculed for that?

Now for Bonds the only answer I see is he should retire from baseball-- seriously-- if he had any respect for the game he should retire and not allow the greatest record to be beaten.

What do you think?

Jamel

Mark these statistics with an * and cite as "player utilized illegal performance enhancement substances".

Didn't know they were convicted of doing this

Jamel

They should and IMO will be. Jason Giambi (confessed), Barry Bonds ("the clear", more coming), Gary Sheffield ("the clear"), Jason Grimsley (HGH) and Rafael Palmeiro (tested positive last season) have already been caught. MLB had its chance to police itself on this matter. The Federal Government wants its pound of flesh on this matter and again IMO, it will have it very soon.

See I don't see how the "credibility of the game" is still up for question. In my eyes, the game lost its credibility already, over the last few years. Nobody believes what Bonds says, nobody believes Selig, nobody puts any weight into the Mitchell investigation. Questions come up whenever you see a player put on weight or hit 60 jacks. Credibility has already been lost.

Bonds' problems with the IRS are far more consequential than the steroid controversy. Sorry, but we know what we know. Bonds admitted to "the clear" and expects us the public to believe he had no knowledge of the ingredients? Bullcrap. The man's head enlarged several inches. We are not that stupid, are we?

First off, the cartilage in your feet (as well as your nose and ears) never stop growing. So the shoe size thing is bunk. All the way up until you die. AS for Bonds' head growing, that does happen naturally too... Granted, I am a physical freek, but it happened to me with ABSOLUTELY NO HGH. My head was 7 3/8 in college, it's a touch over 7 3/4 now, just a dozen years later (shoe size went from 12 1/2 to 15 in the same time).

For the millionth time, HGH doesn't grow longer bones, it grows more dense bones and encourages cartilage regeneration (a guy with knee problems would benefit more than a guy looking to get massive). While people with naturally high HGH end up acromegalic (gigantism), it's because they CONSTANTLY produce gh and IGF-1. A person supplementing can't match those levels. Plus, steroids and HGH, other PEDs aren't things that work better if you do more... they work best when administered and measured with blood analysis, cycled on and off so the body never acclimates to a steady dosage (which shuts your normal hormone production down.

HGH sdoesn't grow more muscle cells. No matter how strong you get, your DNA doesn't decide to grow things where it shouldn't. You can get bigger muscle cells, but you won't grow muscle cells where they aren't.

Secondly more players have cheated on their taxes than EVER did with PEDs... I'll bet you on that. Get the tax frauds, they hurt us all directly.

And don't forget that little known scientific adverse effect called KILLING people.

CCars kill people, let's ban them, Sex kills people, let's ban it. Alcohol kills people, let's ban it. Guns kill people, let's ban it. Money kills people, let's ban it. Do I make my point?

No, you are advocating the ILLEGAL use of drugs which causes people to DIE. And as a representative of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, I would suggest that is rather an irresponsible statement.

How the hell am I a "representative" of the Devil Rays? I am a fan for charity. Why do you feel the need to bring this up over and over like I'm on the payroll? They don't control what I say and they never wanted to.

What are you trying to accomplish Tyrone? Is it your goal to embarass me? I'm willingly and dedicatedly a Devil Rays fan. What is left there to embarass?

Just because you don't make things happen in the world doesn't mean it's your duty to undermine the people who try to... keep your petty jealousy offline, please.

You are disgracing your entire purpose with that charitable cause by advocating athletes to ILLEGALLY use STEROIDS to CHEAT. You should be ashamed.

Perhaps the most ignorant post I've ever read concerning steroids. These abused anabolics KILL PEOPLE. For God's sake, you are supposed to be the "OFFICIAL" blogger of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and then write something stupid like that? Absolutely pathetic and disgraceful. If that is your REAL attitude (I doubt it, I think you just want to pick a fight), then go cover McMahon's "wrestling" gig.

Steroids are a problem. A problem for the balls. This article could have been titled, "The ongoing Trials of Barry Bonds: a penis, wrapped inside a mound of pelvic muscles, covered in shame, entwined in a tangled web of pubes..."

Come on Tyrone, pick a fight with me. Take one sentence of mine skew it and we can start this all over again... your tactics are juvenile and petty... Get off your high horse, Ivory Tower. Or better yet, THANKS for letting SOMEONE else have an opinion of their own for once.

Anabolic steroids have benefits too. Ask an AIDS or terminal cancer patient or someone recovering from surgery. Did you know THAT's why these players all got into steroids in the first place? See: Jason Grimsley's Tommy John recovery

When you get cut open, the body doesn't like that much and reacts vigorously in repairing the damage. Anabolic steroids help heal the wound faster and stronger, just like they help recovery from hard workouts. Steroids don't make you stronger, they enable you to heal quicker.

ANYTHING can kill you if abused. That doesn't make everything BAD.

Anabolic steroids abused in the manner that these drugs have been ILLEGALLY administered in sports KILLS PEOPLE. What the hell is wrong with you?

Are you suggesting that players have been prescribed HGH by doctors for LEGAL USE? Or that they should??? You are insane, Manny. This particular "buzz" on steroids in sports is not a media spin.

Doctors have absolutely prescribed HGH for players. Have you heard ANY of what David Segui admitted? There are doctors ALL OVER the U.S. that will prescribe HGH for you if you are feeling sluggish or worn down. HGH is being touted in the civilian population as an anti-aging wonderdrug. It "makes you feel young".

Go do some research. There are millions of people using PEDs that aren't athletes, that aren't suffering from wasting diseases, etc.

Jeez, there are over-the-counter supplements (such as DHEA) that if you are 30 or older (or have diminishing testosterone levels) act as pre-cursors to HGH and other growth hormones (IGF-1).

Medicine and science should be embraced and understood. Not tied to the burning stake and treated as a pariah.

What is wrong with you?

I think you're catching onto the "I was taught to think for myself" feature that was added onto this model.

"Tyrone Briggs - Even though it's not his real name - when he nothing to work with, he makes it personal" - Erik "Manny Stiles" Kombol

Very nice indeed Erik, but I AM NOT some teenager that you can bully here at this website. Try to stay on topic here without the flames.

"Steroids aren't the problem, people's attitudes are. - Erik Kombol" Yup, You can replace the word "Steroids" in that sentence with just about any other noun and I'll stand behind it...

Illegal use of steroids KILLS. Bonds is a CHEAT. Why is that so confusing to you?

Tyrone, I am not bullying you, I merely expressed my opinion. People need to stop blaming everything and take responsibility for their actions.

Lyle Alzado killed himself, steroids didn't kill him. Same with Matusak, Burt Hooten's kid, etc. No ONE shoves the needle in for you.

Guns don't kill people, people that misuse guns kill people.

Steroids don't kill people, people that misuse steroids die.

I have three members of my family that have benefitted from anabolic steroid usage (two prescribed, one not). When used properly they can have dramatic, positive reactions in the body, promoting health and a sense of well being. What is wrong with feeling vigorous?

Sure, if you abuse them, the problems happen, just like anything else... tobacco, alcohol, even caffeine can wear down your adrenal glands setting off other problems.

Cholesterol and High Blood Pressure kills more people than steroids (including athletes). Wanna get on a soapbox about that? Down with Trans Fats! Down with Sodium!

None of that matters. This is entirely different. These players CHEATED by ILLEGALLY using steroids. It is THAT SIMPLE.

Again, get ALL the cheaters, NOT just Bonds. Don't just single out Bonds because you hate him. He hit a LOT of home runs off of cheaters, too...

This article isn't about trans-fats or sodium. It's about Barry Bonds, the CHEAT with a small wiener who's killing off true compitiion and the sanctity of a sport for his own personal gain. And he has no balls.

Actually, I've stated several times that Barry Bonds should not be singled out on this matter. Re-read the thread if you wish.

then SOLVE the issue. How do we get ALL of the cheaters?

I've always been a bigger fan of understanding and learning about the issue, then making an educated and rational decision instead of banning people on hearsay, conjecture and hypothecation based on iffy methods ("but his hat size went up!")

Bonds is the greatest hitter of our generation, cheat or not.

Already addressed that issue as well. Bonds CHEATED. And I refuse to place any individual's self-interests before the integrity of the GAME. Why the self-defeating attitude towards eliminating the CHEATERS? Again, please read this thread in its entirety. Some of us have actually had a rather engaging discussion specific to the issue at hand and NOT lumping other unrelated content into the mix just to muddy the focus here. If fans are not willing to stand up for the interests of the GAME, then WHO IS LEFT?

Go ahead. But as a guy who played the game for a good portion of my life. IT'S JUST A GAME - with lots of money around it, and money sure does draw in the shady characters every time, so what do you think is going to happen?

There are worse things going on in the world right now than steroid abuse in sports. I just prioritize my worries...

Get steroids out of baseball, go ahead. Where were you 20 years ago?

Now, the BIGGER (pun intended) issue - What about football?

The more prominent problem in football is concussions, not HGH. HGH is a problem, but if players who suffer a concussion in their career are likely to be diagnosed with Clinical depression, there'll be a major fallout.

and more players are getting concussions because they are getting hit harder by bigger, stronger (more HGH'd up) dudes than ever. Here's the problem at the heart of the matter - HGH can't be tested for in an accurate, inexpensive manner. Until it can be, HGH use will go on rampant. When they finally do get a usable, cheap test, there will be a newer drug, etc...

and because of the helmets, which are now heavy enough to be used as a weapon. I'm not dissagreeing with you, I'm just saying no one will play football if they have to suffer through what ex-pats LB Ted Johnson does. He can't always remember his wife, parents, or kids. He's become addicted to amphetamines, is clinically depressed, and is developing Alzeimers. No career is worth that

No one forces these guys to play. Ask any athlete: "If you would die 10 years earlier but you could win one more championship, would you do it?" I bet more than half say Yes without hesitation (and 2/3 would say yes overall)Athletes live for now, most aren't about life after sport/money/fame...

Wait, so Manny, steroids ARE a problem now? We've switched to Football and NOW steroids are a negative?? You just want to argue. You flip-flop just to be right. I can understand how modern science can help people, but that was never the subject of this discussion. You made it the subject just to argue, and now your asserting an opposing understanding. Do steroids make one bi-polar? Do you take them to feel more energized in your internet debates??? WTF????

An argument in support of ILLEGAL usage of DRUGS which unfairly allow athletes to CHEAT and destroy the INTEGRITY of sports is generating POSITIVE FEEDBACK? Nevermind the fact that ABUSING these ILLEGALLY OBTAINED DRUGS KILL PEOPLE. What the hell is wrong with ArmchairGM?

Manny is acting retarded today. He's handing out negative feedback (and probably encouraging others to do it) for everyone that disagrees with him. It's freaking awesome. Screw baseball, Manny is the new spectator sport.

Yes Manny, IT IS JUST A GAME. A game with rules. And that is why CHEATING by using PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS THAT KILL must never, ever be condoned.

Manny Stiles, I can see your logic earlier on in this thread, but then you go and flip-flop on steroids. First you say that they are usefull tools to aid the sickly and those in recovery, then you state that steroids are contribute to injury and sickness in the NFL. Are you just trying to mess with Mr. Briggs, because he has bested you in making one of the most intelligent and insightful arguments about sports doping? How do you REALLY feel about steroids in sports? Your feelings about Tyrone Briggs are very clear, but what are your true feelings on the real issue here?

Look... how many ways do you want to prove your rightness?

You aren't going to change my mind. I'll flip-flop a MILLION different times by your standards because EVERY INCIDENCE IS UNIQUE. Every situation has details that you know NOTHING about. Every person is a little different, and no matter HOW MUCH you think you have ALL the answers. Paintng with a broad brush makes everything LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME. You DON'T know the whole story on ANY of this... worse off, WHERE IS YOUR SOLUTION? Suggestions? Resolution?

Worse off, you aren't going to make anyone think like you, yet you continue to try.

You are just talking, yapping, blabbing, typing about it. You aren't solving ANYTHING.

And, Captains of Freedom that you claim to be... Do you want people to express their opinions? Or do you want everyone to tell you that you're "right"? I still can't figure it out.

You are ridiculous and mischievous with nothing but a penchant for destruction, Mr "Briggs"

My personal philosophy works like this - I think that NOTHING on this planet is neither good nor bad until a USER (being) defines it as so. Good and Bad is user defined. THAT is my personal belief. People CHOOSE what to do, no one makes them do anything. I will not argue with you over this so you can run back to JTJ and tell all your friends how "cool" you are.

I like sports as entertainment. If you want problems to solve in the world, I would suggest looking beyond sports, where REAL PEOPLE dwell and concentrate on those problems. Otherwise, shut your yap about "Armchair does this..." or "Armchair does that" because YOU are part of the community too, Jack. So now Armchair does all the silly bullshit you brought here too...

Other people are voting + or = because THEY want to. I don't even + or - anymore because YOU have taken ALL the FUN from this site. Thanks a lot. SPORTS used to be fun to me, now I have to think about what I say instead of JUST HAVING FUN. I don't minus you, you little crybabies. So STOP blaming people for shit all the time. And DO something. Do something FOR the benefit of people. Other than Blah, blah blah and rearranging other people's blah, blah, blah.....

You stand for nothing.

BLAH BLAH BLAH - YA RIGHT, THAT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT U R SAYING MR MANNY STILES GUY BRIGGS IS RIGHT ON ABOUT CHEATER DOPER BONDS!!!! HANK AARONS RECORD SHOULD STAND!!!

And I am not going anywhere.

And how is arguing against athletes KILLING themselves by taking ILLEGAL DRUGS silly b.s.? What is wrong with you Manny Stiles? Resorting to profanity now? Why?

The direction of this thread completely ashames me as a fan of a game that is being assasinated by ILLEGAL EXPLICIT DRUG USE. What a disgrace to see positive feedback in support for an apathetic attitude towards immoral CHEATING which is absolutely destroying sports and KILLING its participants in the process. To suggest that an athlete must ingest/inject ILLEGAL PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS to pursue a sports career as just part of sometype of perverse job requirement and a consequence to fame & glory is deplorable. Abuse of anabolic steroids and precursors to the synthesis of anabolic physiologic pathways clearly have been medically shown to destroy cardiac, liver, renal and reproductive function, correlate with increase risk of cancers and induce psychiatric disorders that include depression, suicide and rage. That is NOT in dispute. HOW CAN ANY OF THAT BE CONDONED HERE? I thought ArmchairGM would actually care about that the sports so frequently discussed on its forum would IN THE VERY LEAST demand that the playing fields be even & legitimate. What are we advocating - a return to the days of life & death of the Roman gladiators? My God this has been an absolute revelation generated from this discussion thread ON HOW FAR SO MANY HAVE SUNK MORALLY.

Tyrone, first, baseball is only a game for our entertainment and not a battle between good and evil. Secondly, other are allowed to express their opinions and you've repeated yourself over and over again on how disgusted you are at those very opinions. Seriously, we know how you feel on the matter and it's no use insulting a large portion of the AGM community repeatedly.

And I will argue that because baseball is JUST A GAME that the issue of steroids is that important. You are wrong. This is about GOOD and EVIL because these DRUGS KILL PEOPLE. What kind of a forum is this that contains members that REWARD comments that supports an ILLEGAL ACTIVITY THAT KILLS? Get it?

What is "good" and what is "evil" Tyrone? What YOU say is good and evil?

Actually, it is pretty damn simple. Endorsing ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES that can KILL PEOPLE is wrong. And if you cannot understand that or are blinded by an ignorant petty feud between us than your moral compass is indeed of course. Grow up.

Once again, Tyrone Briggs = shining example of eptitude, doer of all things right and good. Never uses profanity (although, the evidence shows he does... often) but calls out others on it (at EVERY chance).

Never takes the subject off course (although CLEARLY the evidence shows it), but calls others out for it...

Has to belittle others (but claims he "won't be bullied") to prove "rightness"

Has ABSOLUTELY zero credentials yet tries to diminish the efforts that others have accomplished (Jealousy is so petty)

Thinks I give a miniscule flying fuck about him. And I don't. Thinks I "minus him", I don't (nor do I care to). Thinks he is someone with a special angle. But he doesn't realize that he is a pimple on the ass of the World. Yet he continues to ride my jock. On and on. Breath that smells like my ballsack sweat.

Never reads a word anyone else says, just looks for whatever he can spin to his advantage... go ahead, IF you read this, spin it, spin it to your advantage, Oh Mr. All Right and Good.

Leave me alone Tyrone. Get a girl. Get a life. Go find some more porn on JTJ. Stop trying to start shit with me because I am intelligent and have an opinion of mine own that can't be swayed by your feeble minded tactics...

Better yet, (and most highly suggested) have some emephing fun already. There are already TOO many serious moments in life. I don't need to come to ArmchairGM for more... you life-sucker-outter-of-er...

Stay all you want, I NEVER ASKED YOU TO LEAVE. I only asked you to contribute, jeez! Just get off my junk already... you're breath is starting to smell like me...

You got nothing. If anyone wants the info you think you have they can find it themselves...google works wonders when you put a one of a kind name like 'Kombol' in there. Make sure you spell Erik with a 'K', you bastards... better yet, email me - MannyStiles@aol.com and I'll invite you over for dinner sometime (and give you WAAAAY more info than my wife's maiden name)

get to know me... you might even like me (everyone else does)

Get a clue, Tyrone. Call me a "douchebag" all you want - like my older brothers never did... IGNORE me all you can. Act as tough as you can, it's all fraudulent. No matter how manny people you sway, You are a Lame-O.

What you got, Champ?

You look to start guff. You pick on other people. And when someone gives you static, you run to Mommy and cry cry cry wolf all you can.

Feeble.

Small.

And I find it Oh! so enjoyable that came across me. Fued this, nimrod!

that's right, I can't even spell fued right. THAT'S how much I care to fight...

"Leave me alone Tyrone. Get a girl. Get a life. Go find some more porn on JTJ. Stop trying to start shit with me because I am intelligent and have an opinion of mine own that can't be swayed by your feeble minded tactics..." Yes, yes EriK Kombol, keep the hate flowing. Atta boy, contribute absolutely nothing of merit to the real purpose of this discussion on Bonds and the Aaron HR record. Didn't realize that ERIK KOMBOL owns the blog here and considers all disagreeing points of view a personal attack. Seems somebody is just a little hypersenstive here. As for your "intelligence" claim, we will review that a later date once realization sets in a certain dense skull that ILLEGAL STEROID USE KILLS and cannot be accepted as a norm in sports.

I just don't see how Barry Bonds is to blame... but here we are.

And one sports related question - Exactly when does YOUR sports "fun" end with this charade of an argument SUPPORTING ILLEGAL DRUG USE: a premature tragic death of your beloved Barry Bonds?

or did Barry commit a crime that NO ONE HAS BOTHERED PROSECUTING? If he committed a crime and EVERYONE is so sure of it, then shouldn't the DA be under fire? Not Barry?

Why won't esteemed former Senator Mitchell talk to Barry? Funny, we have all this "evidence" yet no crimes are being prosecuted...

Isn't this the kind of thing you would otherwise attack? Who is the flip-flopper, Dr. Constitiution? mr. Civil Rights... NO proven guilty, even his sworn oath hasn't been questioned by the Federal AGents whose JOB it is to do these things... yet YOU have all the evidence we need to surmise Barry Lamar Bonds as the ROOT of all this evil.

Did Barry kill someone? Barry has probably never used a needle, first of all... everything he admitted to doing/trying was topical. Barry was STILL the best player before any of this stuff arose... and HERE we are, right NOW. NOT accepting the moment. Here goes another pointless, meaningless-in-the-GRAND-scheme-of-things event down the tubes because we're too busy CRAPPING on the game we love...

Congrats to you, Tyrone. Where do I sign up for the FULL frontal lobotomy?

Where does Manny say anything near "I support the use of PEDs and Steroids"? His thing is don't hate bonds, hate ALL cheaters. PED users, spitball users, pine tar users, amphetamines users, anyone who cheats.

Bonds admitted to the "clear". And that ain't flaxseed oil. He is a CHEAT.

Game of Shadows. Read it.

ask your buddy Jamel if illegal drug use helps his article writing... he seems to have said it does...I would "quote him" but I am too creative to copy/paste other people's inane ramblings as such. How can you support the banishment of one but not the other. Aren't Jamel's article's for entertainment? Should Jamel be asterisked and banished for illicit drugs? A bit harsh, don'y you think? They are only w.o.r.d.s. after all... nothing meaningful to society.... Drugs don't kill... WHOOOPS!! BTW - Barry only plays baseball.

"On The Road" was written under the intoxication of benzadrine. Should I not enjoy it as an All-time American Classic? The Declaration of Independence is written on hemp paper. Should I not believe it because it's production is technically illegal now? Many popular songs have drug references, as do movies, TV shows... if drugs and society are not one and the same, where do sex and rock n'roll lie?

Are we arguing the sociological benefits and disparrages of drugs or are we arguing that Barry Bonds is an asshole? You lost me...

find me where he says it. I want a credible citation that doesn't say it's been reported, or the grand jury testmony. I want them to quote Bary admitting it. Because he didn't say that.

I read Game of Shadows, but the problem is that we can't look to that because they used leaked testemony that can't be verified

Earth to Erik Kombol. Barry Bonds took steroids and CHEATED baseball.

False Prophet - start here and keep reading. Educate yourself on this matter. http://sport...t/index.html

yet again, Game of Shadows uses unverifiable info. SI uses GOS to back their stuff up. I believe Bonds is a cheat, but think that he's innocent till proven guilty. Look at the Duke case. Everyone jumped on them and said we should throw them in jail for it. A year later, we find out nothing happened. Beyond that, we can't say who else cheated, so how do we know what really differed. We also have no positive tests from Bonds. Btw, no need to resort to insulting people's intellegence

False Prophet - How can you possibly comment on a book without even reading it?

I've read it multiple times. And in case anyone is wondering why the AF's are here, I think this explains about everything

Why does it always have to resort to a tragedy? When does it cease "to be entertainment"? When somebody dies from using these ILLEGAL DRUGS?

UR PREACHING TO THE CHOIR MAN, EXCEPT FOR THIS MANNY STILES GUY. SELIGS AN IDIOT BUT WHO THINKS ROIDS ARE GOOD FOR SPORTS????? DUMBEST THING I EVER READ!!!!!!!!

Agreed. But unfortunately I've learned that there are others here that also look upon steroids as just "part of the game" without really understanding the life endangering consequences.

but the question that has been asked is why only bonds? Why not the rest of the roiders from the 90's? Why not all the other druggies in Baseball history? Why not the cheaters?

Please re-read the thread False Prophet. I've already said that all STEROID CHEATERS (ie. NOT JUST BONDS) in baseball should be outed and dealt with.

the comment was directed at Tyrone

And none of that excuses the fact that Bonds is a CHEAT and took ILLEGALLY took performance enhancing drugs.

and he's different how. At some level, everyone cheats. Maybe not consistantly, but every single Major league player has cheated at least once.

agreed. I will stand by my assessment that he took no steroids. He went to Greg Anderson and said "I want stuff better than steroids" but until evidence proves me wrong, he took no steroids.

BTW, I liked Barry before steroids and I hated Mark McGwire before them... I think that Barry gets an unfair rap because he WAS ALREADY an all-time great that watched a scrub step into greatness while manipulating the system. Barry did it better and I commend him fully.

If it WASN'T for Barry Bonds (and Jose "I started juicing in '86 but no one cared for 15 years" Canseco) NO ONE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT IT at all...

dammit! I was agreeing with Tyrone, not FP. FP, that was just stupid to say. I GUARANTEE YOU that not every major leaguer has cheated. There are some SERIOUSLY religeous people in pro sports that would NEVER EVER cheat... SERIOUSLY!

he took stuff that no one had heard of. I totally believe that, but can't say that its for certain, or that I'd punnish him for anything at this point

First paragraph - "He took no steroids".

Second paragraph - BTW, I liked Barry before steroids..

Flip-flop. Bonds CHEATED.

Anyone who's played a decent amount of time has. Even if it wasn't intentional. People who make it look like they got the out, or tagged the guy when they didn't, that's, by definetion, cheating. Gonna prosecute them as well?

Your mind is too focused on your flip-flop fetish... stop blaming others for what you do. I AM NOT JAY MARIOTTI - for the millionth time, please get off my jock!

FP - We are talking about STEROIDS, BONDS and the Aaron Record here. Please don't even bother equating ILLEGAL DRUG USAGE with PLAYING RULES INFRACTIONS.

Erik - well which is it? YOU WROTE IT, NOT ME.

why? They're both cheating, so why draw the line at Steroids? Why not blame drug users? Or rules infractions for the problems in baseball? The point is cheating happens, and removing steroids ain't gonna change it. Don't spend all your time figuring out what everyone did a decade ago, and figure out how to stop people from cheating overall. Thats my point

STEROIDS KILL. Stealing signs from a catcher do not. That is stupid, even for you FP.

but people know that when they use them. It's not like if Bonds roided up, he killed a couple people. Its a risk people take, and its cheating. Cheating is cheating is cheating. Plain and simple. Pete Rose cheated, Bonds likely cheated, Palmero and Canseco both cheated, a bunch of players used who knows what type of drugs before the drug policies to gain some sort of advantage. Pitchers used the spitball for years. They all cheated, and should be treated as such

I'll say it again, tyrone. No need to insult people's intellegence.

Taking steroids in this manner is ILLEGAL. It CANNOT be condoned. It CANNOT be excused. It destroys the integrity of the game. You are persisting in maintaining a defeatist attitude towards a very real problem that THREATENS LIVES.

so are several other drugs people have used. But if you're going to prosecute cheaters, prosecute them all, not just one of them

Again - this conversation is about BONDS, STEROIDS and the AARON RECORD.

Turn the repeat button off Tyrone, no need to post the same thing 50 times. Your arguments certainly have their merits, but they're also full of subjective emotion. You act like the fate of the world depends on how the steroid issue in baseball plays out. Save baseball...save the world?  :)

I like sports, but I don't take it THAT seriously.

I've tried to be patient and open minded...but you've proven in this thread that you only know how to incite and insult when people disagree with you. You ask for a productive exchange, but turn it into something personal which is just not cool.

I will NOT shut up about this issue and use that so-called REPEAT button as many damn times as I want. STEROIDS KILL YOU FOOL. BONDS IS A CHEAT. And I DID NOT BRING ANY FEUD OVER TO THIS THREAD. LOOK TO OTHERS. "Your arguments certainly have merits" but then YOU TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. GUTLESS.

*yawn*

Yeah, just one big amusing game that entertains you, huh Erik? That is until somebody ends up dead from ILLEGAL STEROID USE.

I wish more of it was actual discussion though, and not flamewaring

from what i read, it wasn't a flamewar...TB has had some very valid points about steroids...you guys just disagree with him...that's fine, but understand that the steroid issue is not black and white...hypothetically, the game is clean now (so we're told)...but there's still some issues and there's not way we can fix the last (approx) 20 years... Things like cal ripken's iron horse record, those are the ones that may be tainted and will hurt the sport...and where do we move from there...some people are more purists than others...and tyrone, probably being older than most, seems to be one of those...

False Prophet - why must every disagreement be categorized by you as a "flame war"? You have NO IDEA what a FLAME WAR even is and have yet to really see one generate here or anywhere else. You seek some weird pseudo mutual agreement on a hotly contested issue concerning a record that is a BIG DEAL. Steroids are a BIG DEAL and a BIG FORM of CHEATING that KILLS. Bonds is a CHEAT. And you FALSE PROPHET have brought NOTHING to this discussion other than a complete ignorant disregard to GAME OF SHADOWS - a book based upon hundreds of interviews, testimonies, leaked grand jury testimony (obtained under OATH) and clear INDICTMENT of BONDS USING ILLEGAL DRUGS or other blather that has absolutely NOTHING to focus of this SPORTS discussion. And to JuTMSY4 - thank you for the objective comment to this discussion even if you may or may not agree with my position. Going against the grain here at ArmchairGM on some of your peers in defense of an extremely unpopular poster (yeah me) is an act that I respect. Thanks.

is there precisdence for * an era of a sport? Any?

But then, is this fair for those who didn't even though we have no way of knowing...really...ever?

the flaming starts when Tyrone begins to use insults as argument enhancers. My terms are clear tyrone. I apologise if you promise to leave Armchair, and I will leave websitethejoke.com

"My terms are clear". LOL. I'm not going anywhere you stupid twerp. You have yet to truly see a flame war.

Dudes, please. Anybody's welcome on JTJ and it's a great forum for flaming because folks either engage or ignore. As far as this thread goes, how is Tyrone any different from Manny?

Answer: Tyrone sticks to his guns on one particular issue, Manny takes that issue and introduces non sequitors and irrelevance, i.e. Steroids are OKAY? Bonds isn't the only one? (He is the only player whose CHEATING through DOPING will be STEALING a legitimate record) Find a solution????

Who's responsible for finding a solution? According to Manny it's Tyrone, because he's so passionate about the issue. What's your solution Tyrone? How 'bout you, Manny? And FP?

Calling an apple an apple is one thing, but what's up with tossing it into a fruit basket?

And Manny, you sit on a horse just as high as Tyrone. It's all in the thread.

again, *yawn*... You are all like a bunch of preschoolers some time, but the "EVIDENCE" that was secured under oath was ILLEGALLY obtained and is CHEATING.

PLEASE Explain how breaking laws and DIRECTLY defying court orders is ok to use as evidence to prove cheating at a game is not ok... People have been KILLED by leaked Grand Jury testimony, afterall.

I never said "Go use steroids" - I said that "steroids DO have benefits and when used PROPERLY can be VERY beneficial to health and well being"

Tyrone is saying all steroids are bad and everyone who does them dies, and I am saying steroids are neither good nor bad until someone does something with them... PEDs aren't the problem, people are...

If I'm wrong, or if the information I present is untrue in saying that, well then... you got me.

ILLEGAL USE of STEROIDS KILL. BONDS IS A CHEAT.

Solution? Simple. It is NO SECRET Bonds CHEATED. As I've said before, Bonds' career statistics are tainted and well worthy of a *. Any ballplayer caught utilizing ILLEGAL or BANNED substances gets the * and is discredited from any official MLB record or HOF consideration. That would KILL OFF steroid use in baseball.

There is no WE. Just you for now. And it is NONE of your concern about why I post here.

because he can't minus people for having their own opinions on JTJ...

That's clever.

Where are there asterisks...