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The Great Joltin' Joe and Teddy Ballgame debate.. Part I.

10
Vote

by user Manny Stiles

It started out as a simple heated argument and escalated into a tussle.

Propose the "right" idea to a close minded drunk with a short temper and you could end up on the bleeding edge of all that's happening in broken glass technology. Exchange the words "close minded drunk with a short temper" to "passionate Yankee fan" and it shares the same consequences. You could see my quandry.

I don't think Joe DiMaggio was as great as everyone remembers him being. I thought that he was a very good player (way better than Derek Jeter, mind you) but not quite as great as his contemporaries (like Derek Jeter). Not only that but DiMaggio had THE cat (Marilyn Monroe) in the bag and he let her go (to a writer!) or shall I say couldn't satisfy the agreement (sound familiar to Mr. Jeter?)

They might have played each other less times than Drinkey McDrink-drink called me a "c*$*%#$ker" in one short hour
They might have played each other less times than Drinkey McDrink-drink called me a "c*$*%#$ker" in one short hour

The patrons of what shall always be remembered as "The Bar I Will Gladly Avoid From Now On." were not pleased with my rhetoric, my verification and corrections of their referenced data nor my whimisical attitude towards the Legend of Joe D.

Furthermore if you state that "Ted Williams was better and I can prove it over and over with fact, statistic and all other valid forms of authenticated quantities", they start to think of you as less of an a-hole and more of "worse than than an a-hole". Well in the "right" neighborhood you're just asking for a wicked awesome fight, BoSox Boy!

But that's not what I was saying to the clench-fisted, ultra-spittle endowed master of Bill Cowher impersonations. I was saying that if DiMaggio didn't play in the right hander's cavern of Yankee Stadium and if Ted wouldn't have had the Monster, or if both of them never missed any time due to service time. And on and on and on, we'll never know! There were so many variables!

I started sensing the aura of more of "them" enclosing around less of "us", with the "us" being me... It wasn't just a random conversation bashing the Yankees at a bar with a guy that looked like his blood type is 10W-40 anymore. It was a tripped trigger for a guy that wasn't satisfied with an overall lack of violence in this particular rendition of Tuesday Happy Hour. He had a glint in his eyes you usually only see in tower climbing snipers, long-term residents of padded rooms and the typical unibomber wannabes. And this emepher wanted to fight me!

He's pushing 50 lookin' like he's pushing 70, had a rough life and a rougher day. Maybe his girl wised up and left him, maybe his dog died, maybe his second favorite shotgun busted today while he was using it to fix a flat on his pickup, maybe all of the above stereotypes and more are true. Maybe he was just a psychotic Yankees fan who's existence relied on the simple notion that Joe DiMaggio was an annointed Saint.

And normally, why would I be afraid of this guy? I'm not a violent person. I'm waaay bigger than this dude, I'd crush him if need be! But his 17 or so friends don't appreciate a few things about me:


  • a) it WOULD be fun kicking my ass, eh?
  • b) they don't like my so-called resemblance to that "Jolly Green Giant feller"
  • c) I keep saying the wrong things about the Yankees (nothing good)
  • d) I keep saying these things to the one guy who REALLY doesn't need to hear it. (drunk angry folk)


But logic fails to cool the boiling heat of rage. Often, it enrages the fumous, impatient and non-rational anger MORE!

"I said you were WRONG! How dare you prove that you're right??!?!?"

For once, I felt the fear that I wasn't going to talk my way out of this one, this time... it was reckoning time; the inevitable day of Manny's comeuppance! I knew only had one possible course of action that would possibly save my "oily hide" from some unwanted facial reconstruction.

I told them I was a Devil Rays fan.


  • don't forget to vote on your Favorite Devil Ray as well as other shenanigans at Devil Rays Universe

The Yankees have their Empire, the Red Sox can keep their Nation, we are residents of the Devil Rays Universe!

Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
False ProphetAll-Star
993 days ago
Score 0+-
Ted williams is the best hitter ever until Joe Mauer reaches is prime
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 0+-
I appreciate the enthusiasm, I just wish I could give you a half of a thumb for that comment...
Permalink
False ProphetAll-Star
993 days ago
Score -1+-
Mauer is the only player in the league right now that has a chance to hit .400 or higher. He might do it in the next few years
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
993 days ago
Score 1+-
Joe DiMaggio
<---------ADJUSTED FOR SEASON-------------> <------------ADJUSTED FOR ALL TIME------------->
AGE YEAR TEAM   OUT  UEQR    EQA  EQR BRAR BRAA  FRAR FRAA PRAR  WARP1   EQA  EQR BRAR BRAA  FRAR FRAA PRAR  WARP2 WARP3
21 1936 NY_-A  434   125   .296  103   48   28   30   10    0    8.6   .289   97   42   22   26    9    0    7.5   7.7
22 1937 NY_-A  408   158   .342  139   87   69   35    6    0   13.2   .344  142   90   72   28    6    0   12.7  13.0
23 1938 NY_-A  406   130   .312  110   59   40   25   -2    0    9.1   .315  113   61   43   18   -2    0    8.7   8.9
24 1939 NY_-A  292   127   .359  113   76   63   36   13    0   12.0   .358  112   75   62   27   12    0   10.9  11.5
25 1940 NY_-A  331   125   .348  118   76   61   23   -1    0   10.7   .352  121   79   64   17    0    0   10.3  10.7
26 1941 NY_-A  350   141   .363  139   94   78   36   12    0   13.8   .364  140   96   80   29   11    0   13.3  13.7
27 1942 NY_-A  426   113   .316  119   65   46   30    1    0   10.4   .310  114   60   41   20    0    0    8.7   9.1
31 1946 NY_-A  360    90   .310   96   51   34   26    4    0    8.4   .312   98   52   35   20    4    0    7.9   8.2
32 1947 NY_-A  366   103   .324  109   63   46   10  -12    0    7.9   .324  109   63   46    6  -12    0    7.5   7.8
33 1948 NY_-A  405   132   .329  126   74   56   21   -3    0   10.3   .330  127   75   57   17   -3    0   10.0  10.4
34 1949 NY_-A  179    70   .355   67   45   37   14    5    0    6.3   .354   67   44   36   14    5    0    6.3   6.5
35 1950 NY_-A  367   117   .320  106   60   43   10  -10    0    7.6   .319  105   59   42    8  -10    0    7.3   7.6
36 1951 NY_-A  306    66   .287   68   29   15   19    2    0    5.2   .286   67   28   14   16    1    0    4.9   5.1

.3318       4630  1497   .327 1414  827  616  314   24    0  123.5   .327 1412  825  614  247   21    0  115.9 119.8

Ted Williams


AGE YEAR TEAM   OUT  UEQR    EQA  EQR BRAR BRAA  FRAR FRAA PRAR  WARP1   EQA  EQR BRAR BRAA  FRAR FRAA PRAR  WARP2 WARP3
20 1939 BOS-A  384   145   .332  122   74   56   18    3    0    9.9   .331  121   73   55   17    3    0    9.7  10.2
21 1940 BOS-A  373   139   .338  124   76   60   16   -3    0   10.0   .342  127   80   63   12   -2    0    9.9  10.2
22 1941 BOS-A  275   166   .417  155  120  107   12   -4    0   13.7   .419  157  122  109    8   -3    0   13.4  13.9
23 1942 BOS-A  338   162   .394  164  122  106   32   13    0   16.1   .387  158  115  100   22   11    0   14.4  15.1
27 1946 BOS-A  338   157   .391  161  118  103   31   13    0   15.7   .392  163  120  105   25   12    0   15.2  15.6
28 1947 BOS-A  349   157   .383  158  114   98   14   -4    0   13.4   .382  158  113   97    9   -4    0   12.9  13.2
29 1948 BOS-A  321   147   .367  131   90   76   12   -1    0   10.9   .368  132   91   77   11   -1    0   10.8  11.2
30 1949 BOS-A  373   169   .364  149  102   85   17    4    0   12.7   .363  148  101   84   17    4    0   12.6  13.0
31 1950 BOS-A  228    93   .339   77   48   37    3   -5    0    5.5   .338   76   47   37    3   -5    0    5.4   5.6
32 1951 BOS-A  363   137   .340  122   76   59   27   11    0   11.1   .338  121   75   58   23   10    0   10.5  10.9
33 1952 BOS-A    6     4   .426    4    3    3    0    0    0     .3   .418    3    3    2    0    0    0     .3    .3
34 1953 BOS-A   55    33   .415   31   24   21    1   -1    0    2.6   .405   29   22   19    0   -1    0    2.4   2.5
35 1954 BOS-A  256   119   .385  118   85   73   11    0    0   10.1   .375  110   78   66   10   -1    0    9.3   9.5
36 1955 BOS-A  210   102   .378   92   65   56    9    2    0    7.9   .369   87   60   50    9    1    0    7.3   7.6
37 1956 BOS-A  262   108   .351   96   63   51    9    1    0    7.7   .345   91   58   46    9    0    0    7.3   7.5
38 1957 BOS-A  260   139   .406  136  104   92    7   -3    0   11.5   .398  130   97   85    7   -4    0   10.9  11.3
39 1958 BOS-A  280   106   .357  106   71   58   -2  -11    0    7.4   .350  101   66   53   -3  -11    0    6.7   6.9
40 1959 BOS-A  208    47   .286   45   19   10   -4  -10    0    1.6   .282   44   17    8   -5  -11    0    1.4   1.5
41 1960 BOS-A  215    85   .361   84   57   47   -1   -8    0    6.0   .357   82   54   45   -1   -8    0    5.8   6.0

.3738       5094  2217   .367 2075 1429 1197  212   -3    0  174.0   .364 2037 1391 1159  173  -10    0  166.0 172.0

Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 1+-
whoa, sparky! This is a two part episode! =D
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
993 days ago
Score 3+-
Williams was an elite hitter EVERY year of his career, outside of his age 40 season. He even had an All-Star worthy performance at the age of 41. Absolutely sick career. DiMaggio was a great hitter, but never reached as high a peak as Williams. Both of them are clear Hall-of-Famers, but Williams is a notch above DiMaggio based on what actually happened.
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
993 days ago
Score 2+-
I figured I would beat D21Dub to the punch on posting the stats this time. ;)
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 1+-
But if you tweak history by the slightest bit, every argument goes out the window! For instance, what if there was NO World War II? Part Two coming tonight!
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
993 days ago
Score 2+-
Oh, you mean what if there was NO World War II?
Permalink
False ProphetAll-Star
993 days ago
Score 0+-
Ddub did that a bit ago
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 1+-
Nice, but I have some different "variables" no one has ever possibly considered to introduce...
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
993 days ago
Score 2+-
I believe it...
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #1
993 days ago
Score 0+-
I'm "studying" for an Econ test in the library, so I wasn't as quick with BP.com as I usually am...
Permalink | Reply
Davis21wylieMVP
993 days ago
Score 2+-
That, and I apparently forgot how to log in.
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #1
993 days ago
Score 1+-
What about adjusting for park? Dimagggio's stats were certainly dimished being that he played at Yankee stadium.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 0+-
You're right there, Anony. After studying the numbers more closely I have given Joe D a little bit more respect; I'm not sure "adjusting" for park differences is the same as neutralizing park effects... but he was still a Yankee, so he sucks!
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
993 days ago
Score 2+-
Hey, Manny, why don't you take a drive down to the freezer in Tempe and ask Ted what he thinks?
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 1+-
Actually, he's about a mile from me here at work in Scottsdale
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
993 days ago
Score 0+-
Fact 1: Marilyn left Joe because she was tired of him beating the crap out of her. Fact 2: Marilyn died Sunday, August 5, 1962. Joe and Marilyn were going to remarry on Tuesday, August 14.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 0+-
He still let her get away... and I still believe he was somewhat overrated. And all the hubbub about "Songs referencing Joe D", Marilyn had WAY more songs written about her! I did drive by where she died when I was in L.A. last month (it's not that far from Nicole Brown Simpson's place)
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 1+-
And Marilyn Monroe's Star on the Walk of Fame is next to Arsenio Hall's! Right in front of a stinkin' McDonald's!
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #1
993 days ago
Score 0+-
Marilyn was overrated
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 1+-
fair enough. "Marilyn was overrated". So was Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Wayne Gretzky, the Beatles, Elvis Presley, and every other ICON of modern culture, etc and so forth... Welcome to "expressing your ridiculous opinion" sponsored by ArmchairGM: All Sports, All You.
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #1
993 days ago
Score 1+-
No more ridiculous then "I still believe he (Dimaggio) was somewhat overrated." Now there's a definitive opinion, in a sorta-kinda way. If he was somewhat overrated, then he's got to be somewhat underrated, eh?
Permalink
DNLLegend
993 days ago
Score 2+-
Babe.

Ted.

Rickey.

Everyone else. (Maybe Barry up there, too.)
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
993 days ago
Score 2+-
Everyone always talks about the differences in offense if they had switched home fields, but what about defense? Williams would have had much less value defensively playing in the larger left field in Yankee Stadium, he had little speed and an arm to match. Manny's on his "overrated because he was a Yankee" kick again, but all things being equal, I would take Williams. And I am a Yankee fan.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 0+-
The fun thing is, the debate can rage on forever! (Until part II, that is...)
Permalink
The sharkDraft Pick
993 days ago
Score 2+-
Just popped in to say hello. And nice piece.

Pretty sure that even though I've been gone awhile, everyone already knows my take on this issue.

Oh, and deep down I always figured that it would be a Manny article that would break my silence :)
Permalink | Reply
Bball3345Draft Pick
993 days ago
Score 1+-
So you aren't staying??? Why have you abandoned us? Are we not "good enough" for you?
Permalink
The sharkDraft Pick
993 days ago
Score 2+-
Unavoidable life situations temporarily hijacked me. But it's baseball season now. So I'll be caught loitering and graffiti-ing more often.
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
993 days ago
Score 3+-
Cool, well welcome back!
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 2+-
it's always nice to have a The Shark sighting!
Permalink
Patrickburke1980All-American
993 days ago
Score 2+-
If Williams hadn't gone to the military for 4 yeras (right in his prime, mind you) we wouldn't be having this discussion. He'd have challenged Ruth's all time home run record and he'd more than likely be remembered as the greatest of all time (instead of one of the top 5). ...what i always say.
Permalink | Reply
Patrickburke1980All-American
993 days ago
Score 2+-
I know he was a legend and all - but how did DiMaggio get Monroe? I mean, come on...look at his teeth for God's sake! joe_marilyn54.gif
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
993 days ago
Score 0+-
the remaining three parts of this story can be found HERE
Permalink | Reply
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