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The Craig Biggio Question

12
Vote

by Rawbeezeitz

Craig Biggio will be retiring at the end of the season, ending a 20 year Major League career played entirely with the Houston Astros. Biggio meets the prerequisites for Hall of Fame eligibility and 5 years after retirement, he shall appear on the BBWA ballot for Hall of Fame election.

Does Craig Biggio belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame?

This article will try to present both arguments to the question. As I begin writing this, I’m really not sure if he belongs or not. I have no bias for or against Craig Biggio. To me, he’s always been a solid player that played ball in “that other League.” I’m a Red Sox fan so I never really watched much NL ball compared to the AL baseball I watch when watching the Sox.

Let’s start with the arguments for Craig Biggio belonging in the Hall of Fame.

Durability: Craig played for 20 years. In those 20 years, he has played in 2800 games. That’s including this season underway, and his first season, in which he played 50 games. He’s averaged exactly 140 games per season. He’s played in 150+ games 11 seasons. In 2006, when he was 40 years old, he played in 145 games.

Leadoff hitter: He’s scored 1,827 runs, which is 14th all-time. Ten of the 13 players ahead of him on that list are Hall of Famers (Frank Robinson, Mel Ott, Tris Speaker, Lou Gehrig, Stan Musial, Cap Anson, Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, and Ty Cobb). The other three players ahead of him are Pete Rose (banned for life), Barry Bonds (still playing), and Rickey Henderson (not yet eligible to be elected). The next 14 players behind Biggio on the all-time runs scored list are all Hall of Famers.

He’s got 413 stolen bases, which is 61st all-time. But the era in which he’s played has not been the era of speed and small ball, it’s been the age of the homerun. Biggio is one of only 3 active players to have stolen 400+ bases. The other two are Barry Bonds and Kenny Lofton.

He’s been on base 4,457 times, which is 19th all-time. Fourteen of the players ahead of him on that list are in the Hall of Fame (the others are Rose, Bonds, Henderson, and Rafael Palmeiro). In the history of baseball, only 38 players have reached base more than 4,000 times, and 31 of them are in the Hall of Fame.

Despite spending his entire career in the National League, and spending most of that time leading off (which means he was hitting with the pitcher in front of him), he knocked in 1,160 RBI. RBI totals for NL leadoff hitters are usually small. Craig, however, was consistent, averaging 67 RBI per 162 games, knocking in more than 70 runs in 6 seasons.

Good fielder: Craig spent most of his career as a 2nd baseman. He won four Gold Gloves in a row at that position (1994-1997). He had a career .982 fielding percentage at 2 nd base. He never had a full season below .976 at 2 nd base. He also had a .989 fielding percentage as a catcher, and a .998 FP as a center-fielder.

Awards and accolades: Craig was an All-Star 7 times, 4 of which were as a starter. He was given the Branch Rickey Award in 1997, which is rewarded for community service. He won the Hutch Award in 2005 which is given to the player who “best exemplifies the fighting spirit and competitive desire to win.“ Past winners of the Hutch Award include: Mickey Mantle, Sandy Koufax, Carl Yastrzemski, Pete Rose, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, George Brett, Johnny Bench, and Paul Molitor. Craig has won 4 Gold Gloves, and 5 Silver Slugger awards (1 at catcher, 4 at 2nd base).

Playoffs: When Craig debuted with the Astros in 1988, the Astros had only won the division 3 times. During his tenure, the Astros won 4 division titles, made the playoffs six times, and won their first NL pennant. Houston won 3 playoff series with Biggio. In each playoff series won, Biggio hit better than .300.

Position: Craig’s position is not known for power, nor is it known for much offense at all. Only 18 players are in the Hall of Fame as 2 nd basemen. Even short-stop has more Hall of Famers with 22. Craig also showed a willingness to play where his team needed him to play. He played 427 games at catcher, 216 games at center-field, and 90 in left-field.

His best seasons: Craig’s best seasons were in the mid and late 90s. From 1993 to 1999 he scored 814 runs (116.3 per season), had 1,244 hits (177.7 per season), 122 homeruns (17.4 per season), 514 RBI (73.4 per season), 237 SBs (33.9 per season), and hit .303 over those 7 seasons. He won all his Gold Gloves in these seasons.

In 1997, 1998, and 1999, he had 589 hits, 58 homers, 125 stolen bases, and hit .309 combined in these 3 seasons.

Hits: He’s past the magical 3,000 hit mark. He’s 24 th all-time with 3,017 hits. If he gets 150 more at-bats this season, and hits .250 in those at-bats, he’ll end his career with 3,055 hits, which would tie him with Rickey Henderson for 20 th all-time. Every player that has ever hit 3,000 hits is in the Hall of Fame, if they are eligible. In fact, every player who has ever hit 2,800 or more hits, and is eligible, is in the Hall of Fame.

Finally, Craig played his entire career in one organization. He was drafted by Houston in 1987, rose quickly to the Majors, and spent 20 seasons as an Astro. He also played in the era of steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. I’m going out on a limb here, but it’s safe to say that nobody has seriously or credibly accused Biggio of taking performance enhancing drugs. The guy weighs 180 soaking wet, and has gotten the most out of his ability over a long career.

Now let’s look at the arguments against Biggio being inducted.


He Just Played a Long Time: Craig has played 2,800 games, which has allowed him to rack up his career numbers. He is 21 st all-time in games played, he’s 13 th in at-bats with 10,707. He also is 12 th all-time with 12,322 plate appearances. He is 10 th all-time in outs with 8,137.

In the last 3 years, he has not been a top player. He’s hitting .250 in 2007, he hit .246 last year, and .264 in 2005. He’s gotten 378 hits in his last 3 seasons, which has put him over 3,000. Without those hits, he’s 68 th all-time in hits at 2,639.

He’s scored 224 runs in these last 3 seasons. Without those, he drops to 41 st all-time. He’s also gotten himself over the 1,000 RBI and 400 stolen base marks with these last 3 seasons.

He’s never been a dominant player: Craig’s never won an MVP. The closest he’s ever come was 1997 when he finished 4 th in the voting. He’s never won a batting title, and the highest he’s finished in average was 6 th in 1998. He’s only appeared in the top 10 in batting average twice. He’s only led the league in runs scored twice. Has never led the league in hits. Has only led the league in times on base once in 1997.

He’s only hit .300 four times. He’s had a .400+ OBP only 4 times. His highest slugging percentage was .503 in 1998. He’s finished in the top 10 in OBP only 4 times. He’s had 200+ hits only once. Has had 190+ hits twice. Has had 180+ hits 4 times. Has had 170+ hits 8 times.

His numbers just aren’t that amazing: Craig has a career OBP of .365, which isn’t that amazing. Less than half of his seasons have had OBPs over .375. He is 338 th all-time in OBP. To put this in perspective, he’s tied with Nomar Garciaparra and Julio Franco at .3646. He is .0003 ahead of Trot Nixon. OBP is a very important statistic for a leadoff hitter. And Craig doesn’t exactly have power numbers to counteract his less than spectacular OBP.

He’s scored a lot of runs, but for 15 seasons he had Jeff Bagwell hitting behind him. In other years he’s had Carl Everett, Richard Hidalgo, Moises Alou, and Derek Bell hitting behind him. He’s scored 100 runs 8 times in 20 years.

He’s never been the best player in baseball, in the NL, in his division, or even on his team. He’s been good for 20 years, never really great for any of those years, and has piled up solid career numbers, with his last three years slowly pushing him past certain milestones.

He has a .434 career slugging percentage. He has a career OPS of 0.799 which isn’t bad, but it isn’t that great.

Finally, he’s never won a World Series and has a .234 post-season average. His OBP is .297 in the playoffs.

Okay, now I’m going to compare Biggio to the other 18 2 nd base Hall of Famers. When considering a guy for the Hall of Fame, I think it’s important to ask “Would the addition of this player dilute the Hall of Fame, or make it better?”

Here are the 18 Hall of Fame 2nd basemen and short summaries of their careers and achievements:

Rod Carew - 18 time All-Star (14 time starter), 1967 Rookie of the Year, 1977 AL MVP, 1977 Player of the Year, 7 AL batting titles, 3,053 hits, 1,015 RBI, .328 career average, .393 career OBP.

Eddie Collins - 4 WS wins, 1914 AL MVP, top 5 in MVP voting 6 times (including twice in 2 nd), 1,821 runs, 3,315 hits, 1,300 RBI, 744 stolen bases, .333 career average, .424 career OBP. Also won 174 games as a manager, with 160 losses.

Bobby Doerr - 9 time All-Star (5 as a starter), hit .409 in his only World Series (1946), 1,094 runs, 1,247 RBI, .288 career average, was inducted by the Veterans Committee 35 years after he retired.

Johnny Evers - 3 WS rings, 1914 NL MVP, .270 average, .356 OBP, God knows why he is in the Hall.

Nellie Fox - 12 time All-Star (8 time starter), 1959 AL MVP, 3 Gold Gloves, 1,279 runs, .288 career average (good for the era in which he played). Only 216 strikeouts in 9,232 at-bats (4 th best K to AB ratio ever)

Frankie Frisch - 4 WS rings, 8 NL championships, .294 average in World Series play, 3 time All-Star, 1931 NL MVP, 1,532 runs, 2,880 hits, 1,244 RBI, 272 strikeouts in 9,112 ABs, .316 lifetime average, player/manager from 1933 to 1937, 1,138-1,078 record as a manager with 1 WS ring.

Charlie Gehringer - WS ring, 6 time All-Star, all as a starter. 1937 AL MVP, 3 times in top 5 of MVP voting, 8 times in top 10. 1937 batting champ. 1,774 runs, 2,839 hits, 1,427 RBI, 372 strikeouts in 8,860 at-bats, with 1,186 walks, career .320 average, .and .404 OBP.

Frank Grant - Negro League player and player in the International League before baseball segregated in 1887. Hit .344 in his IL career with Buffalo. Once stole home twice in a game.

Billy Herman - 10 All-Star games (6 as a starter), no MVPs but top 5 in voting 3 times, and 5 times in top 10. 1,163 runs, .304 career average. Made Hall of Fame 28 years after retirement.

Rogers Hornsby - 1 WS ring, 2 Triple Crowns, 2 MVPs, 4 times in top 3 of MVP voting, 7 batting titles, 2 nd highest average ever, 8 th best OBP, 13 th best slugging, 10 th best OPS (1.010), 1,579 runs, 2,930 hits, 1,584 RBI, .358 career average, .434 career OBP, .577 career slugging, arguably the best 2 nd basemen ever. Player/Manager from 1925 to 1937.

Nap Lajoie - 1901 Triple Crown, 5 time batting champion, 1,504 runs, 3,242 hits, 1,599 RBI, 83 deadball HR, .338 career average, .380 career OBP.

Tony Lazzeri - 5 WS rings, 1 All-Star game, .292 average, inducted 52 years after he retired.

Bill Mazeroski - 2 WS rings, .323 playoff average, 7 time All-Star, 1960 ML Player of the Year, 8 Gold Gloves, .260 career average. .260!

Bid McPhee - 1,678 runs, 2,250 hits, 53 deadball HR, 1,067 RBI, 568 steals, .270 career average. Inducted 101 years after retirement.

Joe Morgan - 2 WS rings, 10 time All-Star (7 as a starter), 2 time MVP, 2 time MLB Player of the Year, 5 Gold Gloves, 1 Silver Slugger, 5 times in top 10 MVP voting, 1,650 runs, 1,133 RBI, .392 career OBP.

Jackie Robinson - 1 WS ring, 6 time All-Star (5 as a starter), 1947 Rookie of the Year, 1949 NL MVP, 1949 batting champion, 947 runs in 10 seasons, 1,518 hits in 10 seasons, 734 RBI in 10 seasons, 197 steals in 10 seasons, .311 career average, .409 career OBP. Didn’t play until he was 28 so he missed some of his best years. Broke MLB color barrier.

Ryne Sandberg - 10 time All-Star, 9 times as a starter, 1984 NL MVP, 1984 MLB Player of the Year, 9 Gold Gloves, 7 Silver Sluggers, .385 average in 2 playoff series, 1,318 runs, 1,061 RBI, .285 career average.

Red Schoendienst - 2 WS rings, 10 time All-Star, 4 time starter, 1,223 runs, .289 career average.

Now, if Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Bobby Doerr, and Tony Lazzeri are Hall of Famers, then not inducting Biggio would be unfair. If those guys belong, so does Craig. He’s no Rogers Hornsby, Rod Carew, Ryne Sandberg, Joe Morgan, Charlie Gehringer, or Frank Grant. But in my opinion, his addition to the Hall will not dilute or degrade what it is to be a Hall of Famer. Bill Mazeroski diluted the Hall of Fame, as did Johnny Evers. Tony Lazzeri wouldn’t be in if he weren’t a Yankee, Bobby Doerr might not be in if he weren’t on the Red Sox.

Conclusion: Biggio belongs in the Hall of Fame, but not as a first-ballot Hall of Famer. You can argue that he simply played for a long time and built up his numbers, but he was able to play for a long time, and play for the same team. It isn’t as if he latched on to some team like Tampa and piled up his stats. He was never the best at any given time, but some consideration has to be given for a guy who has played very good baseball for 2 decades.

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RomiezzoLegend
878 days ago
Score 1+-
First off, it doesn't matter whether you're in the AL or NL, unless you're a pitcher (maybe). Both leagues have good pitchers, and hitters. Just because the AL has not lost an all star game for 11 straight seasons doesn't mean that they're that much better. A hit is a hit.

Second, I'd just like to add that Biggio will be close to getting the 300-300 mark when he retires. He's 14 homers away from it last time I checked.

Third, it doesn't matter whether he has played in a lot of games or not. Cal Ripken Jr. played in 3001 games, and he's going into the Hall of Fame. He has 3000 hits, and has produced huge numbers, but what's the difference between him and Biggio, other than the fact of the consecutive games issue.

Fourth: All star is one thing, but WS rings? Ehh... I wouldn't say that's an accomplishment. Robert Horry has 7 rings, and he's an average player to say the least. WS rings are stats for managers in my opinion.

In conclusion, I agree with you, Biggio is a hall of famer, but who cares if he's a first ballot or not? A HOFer is a HOFer, end of story. It's not like you're gonna judge a first balloter to a second ballot and say "This guy is MUCH better than this guy". All of the people in any hall of fame have/had great accomplishments, and that's something you can't take away from them..
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RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 1+-
There's a traditional difference between a first-ballot HOFer and a non-first-ballot HOFer. The Hall is weird with their traditions. Take, for instance, the induction of Gwynn and Ripken. There's really no doubt that they're HOFers, right? But they weren't voted in unanimously because NO ONE has ever been voted in unanimously. Some writer, somewhere, will always vote against an obvious HOFer just to prevent them from being unanimous. It's silly, but it's baseball - a game of traditions.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
I can't let the Cal-Biggio thing happen. How many times was Biggio voted in as starter? The fans thought he was the best second baseman in his league only 4 years in a row ('95-'98) Ripken - 17 times - There's a HUGE difference between Cal and Biggio - Best player at his position 4 years in a row? or Best player at his position for a decade and a half - HRs RBI, OPS and MVPs!

Andre Dawson was a 300-300 guy and also WON AN MVP (and a bunch of Golden Gloves, led his league in meaningful categories, etc)

Name another quality NL 2B during the meat of Biggio's career... Delino Deshields? Jose Offerman? Biggio was the NLs best 2B by default...

Biggio's All-Star backup 2B when he started were

1995 - Mickey Morandini 1996 - Eric Young 1997 - Tony Womack 1998 - Bret Boone, Fernando Vina

You CAN'T make this up! Biggio was All-Star starter 4 times by DEE-FAULT
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ASwaffAll-American
878 days ago
Score 0+-
"Name another quality NL 2B during the meat of Biggio's career"


Now you're making excuses for his inclusion in the All-Star game not even being legit? Geez, Manny, what is your beef with Biggio?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Seriously, Mariano Duncan started at 2B for the '94 all-star game while Biggio backed up.

In 1991, he was backup All-Star catcher to Benny Santiago.

Other NL 2B all-stars during Craig's run Juan Samuel, Ryne Sandberg, Mike Sharperson, Robby Thompson, Carlos Garcia. Seriously.

Meanwhile Robby Alomar was going to 12 All-Star games (starting 9) and no one is demanding him to be in the HoF (even though he was a MUCH MUCH better fielder AND hitter)

Here's some All-Star 2b in years Biggio didn't make it to the AS game - Jay Bell, Jeff Kent, Ray Durham, Jose Vidro, Junior Spivey and in 2001 there was no backup NL 2B...
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Biggio is NOT a great player and doesnt belong in the Hall. Roberto Alomar belongs in the Hall. Andre Dawson belongs in the Hall. Dale Murphy belongs in the Hall. Jim Rice belongs in the Hall. Goose Gossage belongs in the Hall. A long career does not trump true greatness! There's a hundred guys that would have amassed a better career with Biggio's career plate appearances.
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ASwaffAll-American
878 days ago
Score 1+-
And again, who started in the All-Star game instead of him is a weak argument. The All-Star game is based on fan voting. The fact that Griffey got the most votes this year doesn't mean he was the best player on the field. Eric Byrnes got left out...doesn't mean he didn't deserve to be there, doesn't mean he's not a good outfielder, doesn't mean he's not having a good season. How many times have we seen a COMPLETELY undeserving player start the All-Star game? But you're gonna hold that against Biggio? That's bogus.
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ASwaffAll-American
878 days ago
Score 1+-
And longevity counts for nothing? There's a reason some of those players didn't last as long. Longevity isn't EVERYTHING, but you can't say woulda, coulda, shoulda when considering who gets into the Hall. There are guys that WOULD HAVE amassed great career numbers, but they didn't. And again, to say that is only looking at the prestigious 3,000 hit mark. It ignores career OBP (which as I said was great if you look at his prime), it ignores his defense...I can keep going. But the point is that you say longevity isn't everything as if it counts for absolutely nothing.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Look, I understand you like him and you are loyal to him for all he's given you. I'm not saying he didn't try hard, I'm saying that he's not a great player. He was never the best player in his league or even on his own team. If he would have played for 2 or 3 teams, you wouldn't remember him...

He's Harold Baines, he's Robin Ventura, he's Tim Raines. He's Willie McGee. He's Andres Gallaraga. He's a Quality player but never "Great".

You wouldn't build a franchise around him (the Astros never did).
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RomiezzoLegend
878 days ago
Score 0+-
To Rawbeezeitz, yes, that's true, but I just think that some getting inducted into the hall of fame (whether it's 1st ballot or 10th ballot) is a huge honor, and it's just as equivalent in my opinion. Getting into the Hall of Fame is a huge honor as it is. Don't get me wrong, there are better ballplayers than others in the HOF, but people don't judge other people by saying "This guy was better cuz he's a first ballot, while the other is a second or third".
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Using All-Star games to justify including/excluding players from the Hall = stupid. Look at the NL roster this year. And Alomar deserves to be in, too.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
I was using All-Star games to represent the fact that Biggio only stood out due to a lack of quality second basemen. It's also a good indication if you are the best at your position or not - great players don't get left off of All-Star teams often.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm offended! Calling Tampa a team "to latch onto" and "accumulate stats" is a down right lie. No one can pile up stats in Tampa (except the bullpen - for the other teams!).
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DNLLegend
878 days ago
Score 3+-
I think he's a Hall of Famer, and I don't think it's terribly close. There may be five better 2B all-time than him, and considering he started out as a catcher (and played a bit of CF), that also helps.
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RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 2+-
I don't even think he's top 10, to be honest. I think Collins, Grant, Carew, Frisch, Gehringer, Hornsby, Lajoie, Morgan, Robinson, and Sandberg are all better. I'd slot Biggio in the top 15, though. And considering pro baseball has been played for 130+ years, being top 15 at your position is pretty damned impressive.
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JuTMSY4Legend
878 days ago
Score 0+-
You forgot Chase Utley ; - ) and no, its not too early to call
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
How about a compromise: the ugly helmet gets into the hall of fame but not a Biggio plaque?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
How about in five years, people will see things more clearly, rationally and less myopically and emotionally.
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ASwaffAll-American
878 days ago
Score 1+-
Manny, it seems to me that you are the one being emotional about this. You haven't really presented a clear case against Biggio. You've compared him to a bunch of players like Luis Gonzales, whose numbers aren't even close to being comparable to Biggio's. You're not the one presenting a logical argument here.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Specializing in getting hit in the head at the plate for 20 years should not merit an automatic birth in the HOF.
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ASwaffAll-American
878 days ago
Score 1+-
Nobody is saying it does. And again, to argue that's his only accomplishment is pure emotion. This guy just outlined numerous statistical justifications for his induction into the HOF. Those who say all he did was take a bunch of HBPs aren't taking a logical approach to this discussion.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
878 days ago
Score 1+-
Hell, stretch anyone's career to 20 years with avg. skills and HOF arguments could be made on this premise.
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ASwaffAll-American
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Very thorough article, and well though-out. I appreciate it. One thing I'd like to add on the issue of OBP, though. As you mentioned, he hasn't been a top player the last 3 years. You pointed out that his latching on has allowed him to reach certain hits milestones, etc. However, holding on has also been extremely detrimental to his career OBP. He hasn't cracked .330 in any of the last three seasons, which has killed his career number. Because, prior to the last three seasons, he'd only had an OBP below .350 four times in 16 seasons. He had four seasons with an OBP above .400.


I just wanted to point out that there are some places in which hanging on has been detrimental to him. I think if he hadn't been around for the last three or even four years, even though his hits totals wouldn't be as impressive, his AVG, OBP and OPS would look a HECK of a lot better. As I've pointed out here before, I don't think you hold it against a player because he declined late in his career. I mean, if you look at the last five years of Hank Aaron's career, he had a BA of .260 and averaged just 20 HR and 67 RBI. I don't think anyone would argue that that precludes him from being in the Hall of Fame.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
If you have to argue to put him in or not, he's NOT a Hall of Famer.
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ASwaffAll-American
878 days ago
Score 1+-
lol...you can't be serious. People argue these things all the time. Many people argued against Nolan Ryan's inclusion, and still do. A diversity of opinion doesn't automatically mean one side is wrong.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
There's a difference between debating and arguing.

I can come up with lots of reasons to keep Babe Ruth out of the Hall of Fame and debate it all night, but I wouldn't argue over any of them.

A guy who is a Hall of Famer is a guy you look at and say "That guy is a Hall of Famer" - I look at Biggio and say "That guy is a Gamer"
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Ea34Div-I Stud
878 days ago
Score 1+-
Biggio has had a very good career, but is not a Hall of Famer. That said, he'll probably get in because he's a really good guy the media (ESPN) loves him. It doesn't dilute the Hall if he's in, but 30 years from now, very few people will cite Craig Biggio's plaque as their reason for visiting Cooperstown.
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JuTMSY4Legend
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Less will cite Pete Rose's...
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RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
I don't think anyone is going to see Bid McPhee either.
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Davis21wylieMVP
878 days ago
Score 1+-
Somebody really needs to run a Keltner List on Biggio...
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JuTMSY4Legend
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Would you mind explaning D21Dubs, i can't access the site at work...
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Especially if you like hearing the resounding thud of "No"
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Davis21wylieMVP
878 days ago
Score 1+-
Oh, I forgot there's a link here at AGM: Keltner List It's basically a set of questions that outline a player's HoF worthiness; good candidates are guys who get the answer "yes" on 2/3 of the questions.
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Davis21wylieMVP
878 days ago
Score 1+-
*1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
  • 2. Was he the best player on his team?
  • 3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
  • 4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
  • 5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?
  • 6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
  • 7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
  • 8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? (see also: Black Ink Test)
  • 9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
  • 10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?
  • 11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
  • 12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?
  • 13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
  • 14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
  • 15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
Legitimate Hall of Famers generally elicit positive answers for 2/3 or more of the questions on the List.
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JuTMSY4Legend
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Thanks D21Dubs...

Lemme try to do it...

Its a good point...i dunno if ai like the test

But i had 8 yes's and 7 no's...
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
878 days ago
Score 1+-
The Keltner List is 15 questions to ask about a particular player, which make you think more about if they deserve to be in the Hall. The only reason it has any credibility is that it was created by Bill James, and it is useful in trying to judge a player's credentials, though it certainly isn't the definitive answer to anything. I see a "Yes" on #2 (maybe), #3 (the second one), #4 ('95-2001), #5 (obviously), #7, #8, #11 (close in 97 and 98), maybe #13 (though that's debatable), and #15.
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Davis21wylieMVP
878 days ago
Score 1+-
I like it because it provides a framework for discussion that allows us to cut through a lot of the B.S. that usually goes into Hall of Fame arguments. There are definitely other things you could add onto there (and some items you might want to drop), but I think it generally does a good job of focusing in on the important aspects of a HoF-er's career resume.
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RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 2+-
The argument "that he just played for a long time" doesn't really stand up too well. It isn't to be a Major League player. It isn't as if you retire whenever you want to. Many (I'd say most) players retire because nobody wants them. Biggio has played for 20 years, AS A STARTER, for the same team. He was good enough for the Astros to want him to play. And his numbers really haven't deteriorated until his last 3 years.

As I said in the article, I'm not emotionally involved. I don't really care much if he's in or not. But looking at his carrer numbers, and the quality of 2nd basemen in the Hall, Biggio belongs.

And the argument about the other 2nd basemen in the League when Biggio was an All-Star, that just doesn't make sense. If anything, that's more reason for him to be in the Hall. The other players at his position during the time he played were not very good. So relative to his competition, Biggio is one of the best 2nd basemen of his time.

And you know what, 3,000 hits is 3,000 hits is 3,000 hits. Most of the players who amassed 3,000 hits did it in at least 17 seasons, some in 20+ seasons, some in 23 seasons. He got 3,000 hits, and NOBODY WHO HAS 3,000+ HITS ISN'T IN THE HALL, EXCEPT PETE ROSE.
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RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 1+-
It isn't easy to be a Major League player^
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 1+-
Unless you generate gate receipts from the loyal customers, then you can hang on forever. How many people bought tickets after he announced his retirement so they could see him one last time?
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RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 1+-
Just a simple question, Manny. What do you have against Craig Biggio? It seems like you're really biased and vehomently against him.
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JuTMSY4Legend
878 days ago
Score 3+-
Manny hates second baseman...

Manny hates me

Conclusion: I played second base

Not valid...but still true
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Davis21wylieMVP
878 days ago
Score 1+-
I don't know about the 2B thing, he sure likes Ray Durham...
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JuTMSY4Legend
878 days ago
Score 1+-
Ray his some incriminating Photos of Manny This is the same logical reasoning for Gary Bettman still having a job...or people still watching the NBA...
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JamelAll-American
878 days ago
Score 0+-
I better question would be are there guys who are IN the hall of fame that Biggio is better than? (that's a horrible sentence but oh well)
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
878 days ago
Score 1+-
There are a lot of people in the Hall that shouldn't be...most were elected in the 50s, when there was very little logic being used in the voting. If you put in everybody who is better than the worst player in the Hall, you'd have like 3,000 HOFers.
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RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
Lazzeri, Doerr, Mazeroski, and Evers. He is definitely better than these guys, arguably better than one or two more.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
878 days ago
Score -1+-
Burn the HOF down to the ground! Will that make everybody happy?
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Wmof1Little Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 0+-
I really can't get past the fact that I never viewed him as the top player even on his own team. There are years you could argue he wasn't even in the top 3 or 4. I think you can get away with this if your team is a perennial World Series champion or even contender (Braves of the 90’s, several Yankees teams, etc) because it clearly takes more than one strong player to contribute to that kind of success. No Astros club fit this description though (with only one World Series appearance) and I can think of several years I would’ve taken Bags, Berkman, Alou, Oswalt, Wagner, and others above him. Very nice player, but doesn’t fit my criteria for the Hall of Fame.
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RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
878 days ago
Score 1+-
How many second basemen have been the best player on their team? It's a very weak position, historically. You'll almost never have your best player at 2B. Here's a slightly better question: Where does he rank in Astros history? I'd say Ryan and Bagwell are the best two, but Biggio is right up there.
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Dolph72Varsity Captain
878 days ago
Score 1+-
A few things that werent mentioned that I thought may be relevant.

For: He was the first player to be an All Star as a catcher and a second baseman let alone in consecutive years. Only player in the modern era to go 162 games without grounding into a double play. Second player to get 50 steals and 50 doubles in the same season. The other is Tris Speaker. Led the league in runs twice and doubles twice.

Against: Career batting average will end up around .280. Played 20 years and never was generally considered the best in his league at his position.

Synopsis: 3000 hits is generally an automatic Hall of Fame attention grabber so he will get in. In the steroid era his name does not induce the suspicion of some other names that will be on the ballot so it is quite easy to believe that the Hall of Very Good for a Very Long Time will open its doors to Craig Biggio the first chance it gets.

PS Do not sleep on Johnny Evers from the 08 Oh Great Cubs!
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