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Shawn Green is better than Derek Jeter

14
Vote

by Annadrome

Derek Jeter is the most overrated player in baseball. He is consistently called one of the best players in baseball and annually finishes in the top 10 in MVP voting. But in reality, he is no better than a mediocre bum, such as Shawn Green. Seriously, everyone thinks Jeter is so amazing because 1) he happened to be on the Yankees when they won world series after world series, and 2) the gross overemphasis on how important batting average is.

To prove my point, I just picked some random mediocre player who gets constant scrutiny for being awful and useless to their team. The first person I thought of was Shawn Green.

Here are their stats:


Derek Jeter Stats

Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 1995 21 NYY AL  15   48    5   12   4  1   0    7   0  0   3  11  .250  .294  .375   75   18   0   0   0   0   0
 1996 22 NYY AL 157  582  104  183  25  6  10   78  14  7  48 102  .314  .370  .430  101  250   6   9   1   9  13 RoY-1
 1997 23 NYY AL 159  654  116  190  31  7  10   70  23 12  74 125  .291  .370  .405  104  265   8   2   0  10  14 MVP-24
 1998 24 NYY AL 149  626  127  203  25  8  19   84  30  6  57 119  .324  .384  .481  126  301   3   3   1   5  13 MVP-3,AS
 1999 25 NYY AL 158  627  134  219  37  9  24  102  19  8  91 116  .349  .438  .552  161  346   3   6   5  12  12 MVP-6,AS
 2000 26 NYY AL 148  593  119  201  31  4  15   73  22  4  68  99  .339  .416  .481  123  285   3   3   4  12  14 MVP-10,AS
 2001 27 NYY AL 150  614  110  191  35  3  21   74  27  3  56  99  .311  .377  .480  125  295   5   1   3  10  13 MVP-10,AS
 2002 28 NYY AL 157  644  124  191  26  0  18   75  32  3  73 114  .297  .373  .421  113  271   3   3   2   7  14 AS
 2003 29 NYY AL 119  482   87  156  25  3  10   52  11  5  43  88  .324  .393  .450  127  217   3   1   2  13  10 MVP-21
 2004 30 NYY AL 154  643  111  188  44  1  23   78  23  4  46  99  .292  .352  .471  116  303  16   2   1  14  19 MVP-13,AS
 2005 31 NYY AL 159  654  122  202  25  5  19   70  14  5  77 117  .309  .389  .450  121  294   7   3   3  11  15 MVP-10
 2006 32 NYY AL 154  623  118  214  39  3  14   97  34  5  69 102  .343  .417  .483  138  301   7   4   4  12  13 SS,MVP-2,AS
 2007 33 NYY AL 156  639  102  206  39  4  12   73  15  8  56 100  .322  .388  .452  126  289   3   2   3  14  21 AS
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 13 Seasons         7429      2356     54      933     70    1291  .317  .388  .462  123       67  39  29 129 171
               1835      1379      386    195      264    761                            3435
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 162 Game Avg        656  122  208  34  5  17   82  23  6  67 114  .317  .388  .462  123  303   6   3   3  11  15
 Career High    159  654  134  219  44  9  24  102  34 12  91 125  .349  .438  .552  161  346  16   9   5  14  21

Shawn Green Stats

Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 1993 20 TOR AL   3    6    0    0   0  0   0    0   0  0   0   1  .000  .000  .000 -100    0   0   0   0   0   0
 1994 21 TOR AL  14   33    1    3   1  0   0    1   1  0   1   8  .091  .118  .121  -38    4   0   0   0   0   1
 1995 22 TOR AL 121  379   52  109  31  4  15   54   1  2  20  68  .288  .326  .509  114  193   0   3   3   3   4 RoY-5
 1996 23 TOR AL 132  422   52  118  32  3  11   45   5  1  33  75  .280  .342  .448   94  189   0   2   3   8   9
 1997 24 TOR AL 135  429   57  123  22  4  16   53  14  3  36  99  .287  .340  .469  108  201   1   4   4   1   4
 1998 25 TOR AL 158  630  106  175  33  4  35  100  35 12  50 142  .278  .334  .510  116  321   1   3   2   5   6
 1999 26 TOR AL 153  614  134  190  45  0  42  123  20  7  66 117  .309  .384  .588  143  361   0   5   4  11  12 SS,MVP-9,AS
 2000 27 LAD NL 162  610   98  164  44  4  24   99  24  5  90 121  .269  .367  .472  118  288   0   6   9   8  18
 2001 28 LAD NL 161  619  121  184  31  4  49  125  20  4  72 107  .297  .372  .598  157  370   0   5  10   5  10 MVP-6
 2002 29 LAD NL 158  582  110  166  31  1  42  114   8  5  93 112  .285  .385  .558  155  325   0   5  22   5  26 MVP-5,AS
 2003 30 LAD NL 160  611   84  171  49  2  19   85   6  2  68 112  .280  .355  .460  117  281   0   6   2   6  18
 2004 31 LAD NL 157  590   92  157  28  1  28   86   5  2  71 114  .266  .352  .459  113  271   0   2   6   8  17
 2005 32 ARI NL 158  581   87  166  37  4  22   73   8  4  62  95  .286  .355  .477  113  277   0   8   6   5  18
 2006 33 TOT NL 149  530   73  147  31  3  15   66   4  4  45  82  .277  .344  .432   94  229   0   3   5  10  17
         ARI NL 115  417   59  118  22  3  11   51   4  4  37  64  .283  .348  .429   93  179   0   2   4   6   9
         NYM NL  34  113   14   29   9  0   4   15   0  0   8  18  .257  .325  .442   99   50   0   1   1   4   8
 2007 34 NYM NL 130  446   62  130  30  1  10   46  11  1  37  62  .291  .352  .430  106  192   1   1   4   5  14
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 15 Seasons         7082      2003     35     1070     52    1315  .283  .355  .494  120        3  53  80  80 174
               1951      1129      445    328      162    744                            3502
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 162 Game Avg        588   94  166  37  3  27   89  13  4  62 109  .283  .355  .494  120  291   0   4   7   7  14
 Career High    162  630  134  190  49  4  49  125  35 12  93 142  .309  .385  .598  157  370   1   8  22  11  26
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+


Over the course of 13 full seasons, Shawn Green averaged 25 homers a year, 82 RBI's, 86 runs, 12 SBs. a .283 BA, and a .355 OBP.

Meanwhile, over the course of 13 full seasons, Derek Jeter has averaged 15 homers, 71 RBI's, 106 runs, 20 SBs, a .317 BA, and a 388 OBP.

So in other words, over the course of his career, what has Derek Jeter actually done that is better than Shawn Green? Pretty much nothing.

Shawn Green hits 10 more homers a year, and drives in 11 more runs.

Jeter on the other hand has a better BA ,OBP, and runs scored. But what exactly does that mean really? Over the course of every 100 at bats, Derek Jeter gets 3 more base hits than Shawn Green (.317 BA vs. .283) and gets on base a total of 3 more times (.388 OBP vs. .355 OBP) every 100 plate appearances. Does that really help a team win? Getting on base 3 more times every 100 at bats? That comes out to getting on base 1 more time every 7 games (assuming 5 plate appearances a game), and around 20 more times an entire year.

So would you rather take a guy that gets on base 20 more times a year, or a guy that will hit 10 more homers and drive in 11 more runs?

I know you will bring up Jeter is a leader, and plays a tougher position, and has won World Series rings, blah blah blah. But that's all ridiculous. The Yankees would have won all those rings regardless of who played shortstop. The yankees won because they had great teams. They had guys like Tino and Paul and Mariano and Pettitte and on and on. Jeter was just another mediocre player on that team.

I'm not really arguing that Shawn Green is better than Derek Jeter. I'm just saying that Jeter is the most overrated player in baseball, and the fact that you can even make a plausible argument that Shawn freakin Green is better proves this.


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
TylersaltAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 1+-
Jeter's career WPA: 15.31 Green's career WPA: 4.75
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 3+-
Now compare their salaries!!!
Permalink
AnnadromeVarsity
774 days ago
Score 0+-
What's WPA and how is it computed?
Permalink | Reply
TylersaltAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 0+-
WPA has a short article on AGM, and a much better article here at the Hardball Times. It stands for Win Probability Added.
Permalink
AnnadromeVarsity
774 days ago
Score 0+-
I just read the article on Hardball. That's a dumb stat in general, and especially for this argument. Here is an excerpt:

"WPA is not a good predictive statistic because it's not necessarily a good representation of a player's true talent. If a player hits a home run in the ninth inning of a 1-0 game, he is credited with more WPA points than if he hits a home run in the first inning of a 1-0 game. The talent is the ability to hit the home run; when it happens in a game is something that is pretty random."

Jeter's WPA will definitely be higher because his team is constantly involved in close games. He has been on a great team for 13 straight seasons. Green, on the other hand, was on a bunch of mediocre Blue Jays and Dodgers teams. If Shawn Green is constantly coming up to plate with his team down 7-1, or 9-2 or whatever, no matter what he does, it won't add much to his WPA.
Permalink
MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
774 days ago
Score 1+-
Doesn't that just support my argument that sabermetrics were invented to make mediocre players look better than they are?
Permalink
TylersaltAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 0+-
I happen to agree with you, I was just throwing it out there.
Permalink
TylersaltAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Also, great teams play more blowouts and fewer close games.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 0+-
"great teams play more blowouts and fewer close games." Prove this stat to me, please! I would contend that truly GREAT teams actually win more close games than blowouts. Unless you consider scores like 1-0, 2-0, 2-1 3-0, 3-1, 3-2, etc. a "blowout"
Permalink
Silencer76AAA-er
774 days ago
Score 0+-
For all the talk here, it boils down to this...who the hell cares? You want to tout Shawn Green as a better player because he averages 10 more homers and 11 more RBI a year...if you break it down the way you broke down the hits and OBP stats, that means over the course of the year, Green hits one more homer every 16 games and drives in one more run every 15. Does that help a team win?

Also, Jeter has been consistent in his production...look at the wicked tailoff for Green since 2002.

I personally hate both guys, but still, comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.
Permalink | Reply
PeanMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 1+-
let's see Shawn Green pull this off
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 6+-
If we start making a list of players better than Derek Jeter, we'll have no time to do anything else...
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 1+-
I happen to agree with MJD..Bernie Williams was fackin' awful.
Permalink
MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Derek Jeter is not the most overrated player in baseball. That honor goes to Bernie Williams.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 1+-
Bernie Williams isn't in baseball anymore...
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 1+-
And correct me if I'm wrong... Bernie was never made Captain or given an entirely bogus nickname like "Mr November" or "Captain Clutch"
Permalink
MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Bernia has not retired. He remains a free agent.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 4+-
When you haven't played in a year, and no team is interested in paying you anything more than scale, you're retired. Sometimes, when a player retires its not his choice.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Then Minnie Minoso is still a free agent.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 4+-
Manny, Manny, is that you? Is today Ekom's day off, so you're writing under your wife's log-in?
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 5+-
Nah, it ain't me or my wife. If it was, we'd be comparing Jeter to items around our house. Like turds in the cat litterbox, the film that lines our garbage disposal, the sun-roasted dead pigeon in the back alley, my jar of q-tipped earwax I've saved over the decades or a pile of my son's VERY used diapers... You know me better than this...
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 1+-
You're right. And besides, all those references you listed are titles of previously written Jeter comparison articles.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 1+-
only when I'm being "nice"...

If Jeter was HALF of what people give him credit for being, he would have moved from Shortstop (to 2b or OF) the DAY they acquired ARod (the BEST and most productive SS to ever play the game)

Instead the "Captain" selfishly hurt his team by keeping his diminshing "skills" at a crucial spot like SS while ARod had to make the adjustment (and garner 2 MVPs) at a position that is not natural to him...

I know Jeter has no arm for SS let alone the OF, but it's still better than the flap of skin dangling from Johnny Damon's shoulder...
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 2+-
It's OK to be a hater, I respect what you say because you back it up. But I do need to clarify;
  • 1) I agree, Jeter should have at least considered moving to the outfield. Why would he have been the choice? Because ARod is unable to. Put Jeter in left, Damon in center, and put that piece of shit Cabrera on the bench where he belongs.
  • 2) Thankfully for ARod, defense is not a consideration when considering MVP voting, statistically, he's been the worst thirdbaseman in the ML since his move.
  • 3) Don't worry, though. You'll have plenty of time to see ARod at shortstop again, after he opts out and leaves New York.
Permalink | Reply
Anonymous Fanatic #1
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Kels, why do you think that jeter or damon are better outfielders than cabrera? Unless, you were making a joke? damon and jeter both don't have arms like melky.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 2+-
That's all Cabrera has is a good arm. No way the dude should be a ML regular.
Permalink
OvertheedgeVarsity
774 days ago
Score 3+-
look at all the yankee fans defending their boy, ha, let me let you in on a lil secret THEY BOTH SUCK
Permalink | Reply
RomiezzoLegend
774 days ago
Score 3+-
Derek Jeter worse than Shawn Green? That's a pretty strong statement.

What about World Series rings? 4-0.

Batting average: .317-.283

Hits: 2356-2003, + Jeter has played in 76 less games than Green.

Runs scored: Jeter has 250 more than Green.

SLG: Even though Jeter is not a power hitter and has never hit more than 24 homers in his career, and 20+ homers only twice in his career, he still has .032 SLG less than Green, who has been in the heart of the order throughout almost all of his career.

Jeter is overrated sometimes, and doesn't deserve to be paid as much as he does, but Shawn Green? There is no way Green is better than Jeter. + you've got Jeter's leadership skills, his respect to the public and media, etc. (I know these don't count, but you should look at that anyway). The only things that I'd say Shawn Green is better than Jeter in are homers & RBIs (should be if considered a power hitter) and possibly defense if you compare the fielding percentages with the league's fielding percentage throughout both of their careers.
Permalink | Reply
Davis21wylieMVP
774 days ago
Score 4+-
Yeah, you pretty much proved the original poster's point by citing WS rings, AVG, Hits, Runs, etc. Instead, my response would be: Jeter is way better than Green at getting on base. OBP is roughly 1.8 times as important in run scoring than SLG. So raw OPS overrates Green's offense. Also, Jeter is a much better baserunner, he has a better eye at the plate, is a better contact hitter, and plays a more challenging defensive position (therefore making his runs created more valuable because of positional scarcity). In other words, Jeter is simply a better offensive player than Green. And, sure, "Pastadiving" Jeter's a horrible defensive SS who has no range, but Green hasn't been an asset in the field in years. A bad defensive SS who can hit better than the league average is still harder to replace than a mediocre defensive RF who can barely break average.
Permalink
TylersaltAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 2+-
I just picked some random mediocre player who gets constant scrutiny for being awful and useless to their team. You mean like J.D. Drew?
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 3+-
He said mediocre Salty, which eliminates Drew altogether. Now, if he said, random sucky player, different story.
Permalink | Reply
Bball3345Draft Pick
774 days ago
Score 4+-
You may be able to make a case that Green is the better offensive player (although I would disagree), but Jeter is the more valuable offensive player.

Better = more talented

More Valuable = adjusting offense for the position they play (not because of a position being "tougher" to play. Fact is, it would be MUCH easier/cheper to find a corner outfielder with Green's production than it would be to find a comparable SS.

Overall, I would agree that Jeter and Green have had very similar value in their careers to each other. Still, If I were drafting for a team, I would take Jeter over Green any day.
Permalink | Reply
MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Well done, and you didn't even have to invent any statistics to do it :)
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Jeter couldn't hit 4 HR in a week, let alone one game!
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
774 days ago
Score 2+-
Thanks MJD... but now that you mention it, maybe I will have to fix something up. just kidding ;)
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 3+-
"Fact is, it would be MUCH easier/cheper to find a corner outfielder with Green's production than it would be to find a comparable SS." There's your answer, perfectly stated. Nice job, Tim.
Permalink | Reply
AnnadromeVarsity
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Fine. replace with Shawn Green with Ray Durham, and I make the same arguments.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 0+-
No, you can't. And least not sensibly.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Ray Durham has a sickeningly similar to Derek Jeter's.

Let's just hypothesize Durham as a Yankee and Jeter as a White Sock and Giant (I'll always remember him as an Oakland A) and we'd be arguing if Shawn Green is better than Ray Durham, wouldn't we?

It's pretty bad when a rookie who deeply admires you (Troy Tulowitzki) wears your number 2, has a MUCH better season and goes deeper in the playoffs than you do...
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Based on fielding percentage, Jeter is slightly above average for his career. Yes, his chances have diminished over the past couple of seasons, but that's true for every 33 year old shortstop. Then again, the Yankees pitching staff the past couple years have been a predominately flyball staff, which decreases chances in the infield. ARod's chances went down at third, yet his errors went up? Jeter's not in the same category athletically as Cal Ripken Jr or Robin Yount. He's not going to change positions and win an MVP, just not going to happen. I also don't see him being a reserve player, so with three years left on his deal and being 37 when it's done, my guess is he walks. ARod will hang around because he will have reasons to, HR record, shortstop fielding records, so when all is said and done, ARod will be considered the better player of the two, but his only ring will be his wedding ring.
Permalink | Reply
WardenVarsity
774 days ago
Score -2+-
This article just proves that opinions are like you-know-what: everyone has one, and yours is more absurd than most. You make a specious argument, and then you say: hey, don't tell me Jeter plays a tougher position, is a winner, etc. Sorry, those are facts. The fact that you call him mediocre is a huge joke. Does 200 hits every year mean nothing? I kinda was under the impression that it's a pretty good accomplishment. Thanks for setting me straight that mediocre players reach that lofty total every year. Jeter has 6 of those mediocre years playing the toughest position in baseball except for catcher. Another 2 or 2 years with 190-plus hits. Sorry that these facts get in your way. We eagerly await your next stupid post about Peyton Manning being overrated and that Jeff Garcia is a better football player. Worry about your own lousy team, the worst club to ever win a World Series in the history of the sport. Next time break the Prozac in half.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 0+-
I knew a guy that was amputated at the waist and had no "you-know-what"... Try using "Opinions are like birthdays - Everyone has one and they come around too often"
Permalink
Audino237JV Squad
774 days ago
Score 2+-
How about the 11 more rbis a year for Green stat? thats absurd because in his good years, he was batting 3-5 for good teams surrounding him with good players. Jeter has been batting leadoff or in the 2 hole for the length of his career so of course he won't be getting as many chances to drive in runs. when jeter is the yankees captain, the spokesmen in the locker room, and owns all those rings, its absurd to say that he is mediocre
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Who bats behind Jeter through all those years? Who is protecting Shawn Green? Jeter benefitted from being a Yankee more than the Yankees benefitted from Jeter.

I also love how "rings" has ANYTHING to do with the argument provided. We are comparing individuals - yet the Pro-Jeter people regurgitate the team accomplishments.

Q. How many rings has Jeter won without Paul O'Niell? A. The same number as Shawn Green won without Paul O'Niell...

Q. How many World Series has Jeter won as Captain of the Yankees?

A. The same number as Shawn Green won without Paul O'Niell...
Permalink
CityhockeyfeverVarsity Captain
774 days ago
Score 0+-
Somebody doesn't like Derek Jeter. This debate is so absurd. So many people covered points I would've, but they've been done. I will add this. A player's value and ability to compete and succeed isn't solely on just statistics. Jeter has never been a power hitter to begin with, so I don't expect he'll hit 30 homers in a season. Also, a player can be more judged for how he performs in the most crucial situations. It's not so much how many hits somebody gets, it's how and when they're hit is what really counts. And Manny's argument about Jeter being protected in past lineups by Paul O'Neill doesn't make a difference. And my view has nothing to do with any pro-Jeter or anti-Jeter bias. The only thing about Jeter where he is grossly overrated is his salary. Then again, most stars are grossly overpaid to being with.

But hey, at least he gets some. Lucky bastard. More than the average Joe, pretty much.

Anna, I am surprised you didn't just use Albert Pujols in your argument. Then again, you might come across as a homer if you did. ;)
Permalink | Reply
Anonymous Fanatic #2
636 days ago
Score -1+-
Anna drome is a dork
Permalink | Reply
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