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Prayer for the slain at Virginia Tech

24
Vote

by user Douglasvgibbs

I know this is a sports site, and I am a regular contributor to Armchairgm with my sports opinions.  But this is a story that must be talked about, and prayed about.

Prayer for those in the crossfire

I spent most of my day yesterday behind the wheel of a big rig transporting equipment between Orange County, San Bernardino County, and Riverside County in Southern California. When days like this come up where I spend most of my day driving, it enables me to spend a lot of time listening to the radio. I was shocked at the events developing at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia.

A gunman went on a rampage, reportedly killing 32 plus himself, and injuring twenty plus, in the most horrific and worst mass killing in the history of the United States. This campus shooting began, authorities believe, with a killing of two in a dormatory, and then two hours later, equipped with a 9mm and .22 caliber weapon, and a jacket of clips, the gunman went from class to class at Norris Hall killing at will.

On Michelle Malkin's site, an e-mail from a student at Virginia Tech that had been trapped in one of the classrooms, baracaded as the shooter fires shots through the door they blocked only seconds before, gives a chilling first-hand account of the events.

I have no opinion on yesterday's events other than that they are chilling, and that thoughts of my wife who goes to a local university in pursuit of her bachelors degree, and my children who are roughly the same age as the students at Virginia Tech, came to mind. My prayers go out to those slain, to the parents of those gunned down, and to the students who survived, but will be affected by this for the rest of their lives.

Pray with me for their healing.


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
Henry buttsLittle Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 1+-
Write to your representatives for tougher gun laws. I can't think of any reason why guns should be so accessible.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 4+-
the gun wasn't the problem here. Even if "guns weren't accessable" people would still get them. This guy seemed pretty determined.
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Taytay 24All-American
960 days ago
Score 0+-
The guns didn't help.

After 35 died in the Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania, Australia passed gun reform laws. Port Arthur was the thirteenth mass shooting in eighteen years. There have been none in the eleven years since.

Meanwhile, Americans keep claiming their right to bear arms in the name of self defense, and these slayings keep occurring.
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ChristofMVP
960 days ago
Score 2+-
Folks, the real problem here is the society and culture that we live in.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

I bring this quote up first in regards to the guns debate. To be honest with you, banning guns in the United States today or tomorrow would do more harm than good. First, you take away government regulation and oversight of guns. Second, you are creating a black market for gun smuggling. (Think how lawful prohibition was, and apply that to this situation. It would be bad, real bad). Third, by banning guns, you are not solving the problem, you are just tinkering with an option that could be used. Other instruments of violence are still readily available, and that includes the black-market for guns that would develop if guns were banned.

The real problem here is how popular culture and society views life. Today, popular culture, for the most part, demeans and mocks the individual, and devalues human life. Throw in the fact that many people are emotionally insecure and mentally unstable on top of the culture the celebrates destruction, and this is what you get.

My prayers are with those who lost their lives and their families. This, however, will not be the last such tragedy. Actually, I am surprised that it took this long for something like this to occur. I figured that within a year or two of Columbine, which, by the way also happened 8 years ago this week, this type of bloodshed would hit college campuses. Maybe 9/11 slowed it down. Who knows.

Another area of concern is sporting events. It is only a matter of time before someone 1. goes postal at a stadium, be it for a college or pro event, 2. straps himself with a bomb and blows himself up, along with others near him at a sporting event, 3. uses some sort of chemcial weapon at a stadium, or 4. pilots a small plane into a crowded stadium.

Nonetheless, this is the time to mourn those lost in this mayhem. It is also a time to discuss the causes for such as an event. However, for those who think banning or limited guns will prevent the next tragedy, my friends, you are off base. The real problem is not the gun, rather, the real problem is popular culture and society in general.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
960 days ago
Score 3+-
Christof, people have been killing other people since the beginning of time. Murder isn't a recent phenomenon.
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ChristofMVP
960 days ago
Score 0+-
BBall - I am not saying murder is something new. It has always been around and will always be around. The point here I was / am trying to make is about the frequency of murder. I simply do not think that banning guns will decrease the murder rate in the US. Actually, I would argue that it would increase the murder rate, rather than lower it. If the citizens of the US really want to change the frequency of murder in the country, then we need to look at our culture and society. I don't think we will, mainly because that would mean placing blame on things and changing things, and that is not the "cool thing" to do right now.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Christof, I agree that our view of and lack of respect for life is an issue in America. But to say that gun reforms would do more harm that good is to deny facts.

Again, pre-Port Arthur—13 mass shootings in 18 years. Post-Port Arthur—0 mass shootings in 11 years.

I'll take Alex's word for it that these mass shootings don't occur in Britain, either, where even the police don't carry guns. I read a similar report from the UK on another site.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Does Port Arthur have the gangsta culture that the US, especially in the inner cities, have?

This didn't get much play in the mass media (what a surprise) last week, but Tony Blair made some quite provocative comments. Addressing the increase in crime and violence in London, Blair place blame for this on "black culture." Now, I would not use the term "black culture" like Blair did, but I would agree with him that the gangsta, punk, lie, screw and cheat culture that is the center of popluar culture in the United States these days are to blame for the increase in crime and violence(looks like this is also beginning to hit England, based on Blair's comments).

The sad thing is, nothing will be done about this in the near future. We must first go lower and hit rock bottom before people will say enough is enough. This is because 1. people in power (entertainment industry and media in general) are making mad $$ and don't feel like changing a thing, 2. politicians are afraid to speak up because a. we are trying to live in a guilt free society, so b. to speak up means to place blame, which results in c. folks spending money against you and running against you and d. that means you are soon to be out of elected office.


Ultimately, I think, change will occur. Not thru the entertainment or mass media aveneue, but from us, via the Internet.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
No, Port Arthur is not big on the gangsta scene. But the Port Arthur massacre was only the catalyst. Gun reform was Australia wide, and yes, there are more than a few impressionable youth in the cities who imitate the gangsta lifestyle they associate with the US. But crime statistics have gone down since gun reform laws took effect.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Taytay - the problem in the US is the fact that the gangsta culture is not only common-place, but is in many ways, revered. At this point, banning guns will not improve the situation. Rather, it would make it worse, for the gangsta culture would just glorify the use of illegal guns.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
I understand the American gangsta culture—I am an American. But as I said before, youth in Australia also revere this culture, as they do most things American, but gun reforms have not exacerbated the issue.
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 14+-
As a Virginia native, I have to say that the events of yesterday may have been the most disturbing thing that I have ever seen. After yesterday, I am short a friend, and I am not sure I will ever be able to look at Virginia Tech again. My thoughts and my prayers go out to my friends family, and strangers. I can only hope that we can learn from what happened on Monday.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 2+-
DW, you were the first person I thought of when I heard of this!@ Then Bruce Smith, then Mike Vick...
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 1+-
Thanks Manny
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Taytay 24All-American
960 days ago
Score 2+-
BigPPup, I am truly sorry to hear that this has affected you personally. You and yours are in my prayers.
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DRE-LOAAA-er
959 days ago
Score 1+-
BigPPup, I'm so sorry for your loss. Stay up bro.
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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
960 days ago
Score 1+-
Here comes the "Alex defends Britain" bit. We don't have the US gun laws, and well, we never have this problem. Irrespective of the determination of the person that did it, if they're less available, what appears to us over here to be quite a regularly occuring thing (or at least too regularly) would be at least stopped slightly.

And don't take this personally, but to be honest, the US gun laws are completely stupid. If Europe can survive without them, USA can too.

Condolenses BigPPup.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
960 days ago
Score 1+-
Not the right time or place for that comment.
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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
960 days ago
Score 0+-
My point is simply questioning the laws in the first place. I think they are at fault for the disaster today, obviously not as much as the guy that did it, but different laws would minimalise the chance of it happening again.
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 3+-
As a southerner, and an American. I will continue to support our gun laws in the United States. It is our right to have arms, even if the law is outdated.

Gun laws may have prevented what happened at Va Tech, but its not the answer to stop all violence. Alex you know that, you can open any English or Irish history book and read what happened during the Terrors in England. The same kid who shot 31 people in BLacksburg had just called in 2 bomb threats the week before.

Its the people that need to be fixed and helped. Not the weapons.
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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
960 days ago
Score 0+-
I'm not suggesting for a second it would stop all violence. That's impossible. The people controlling the weapons are also the main problems. But less guns available will reduce gun crime like this. Okay, burglaries may go up since they know they won't get shot, but what's more important, an antique clock or a friends life?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 2+-
Alex, one day... when you have a family of your own to protect and not just ideals to shield yourself with, you'll see where a firearm could be extremely peace of mind-making. A gun is a tool, just like a hammer. A real big, mean hammer.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 2+-
here in America, we should have LESS laws to harass the citizens... consequently, it's not our government's job to prevent random violence; however, it is the government's job to handle the situation more appropriately...
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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
960 days ago
Score 0+-
Au contrare, I shall never possess a firearm, nor do I ever wish to.
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 2+-
Very well said Manny
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 2+-
BigPPup, you confess that you will continue to support admittedly antiquated gun control laws? Manny, I have a family, too, and have no desire to own a gun.
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False ProphetAll-Star
960 days ago
Score 0+-
You want to know what could have stopped this? a responsive and organized Va Tech administration. It took them 2 friggen hours before warning anyone about what happened. That shouldn't happen. ANd I'm sorry for your lost BigPPup
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Davis21wylieMVP
960 days ago
Score 0+-
True... Never assume that a killer has left the area, or that it's just an isolated incident. Also, the kid was a legitimate psycho, and the university counselors knew about it. I'm not sure what you do about that, but this is definitely one person who shouldn't have been anywhere near a gun. I'm pretty upset about this. My prayers are with you, DW, and with everybody at VT. I can't believe this happened.
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ChristofMVP
960 days ago
Score 2+-
False, I think you are being way to rough on V-Tech admin and police. This is the real world and not an episode of Law & Order. Sure on TV, a crime occurs in the first minute, suspect is figured out five minutes later, and twenty minute after that, an arrest.

This, however, is the real world. The first shooting occurred at 7:15 am. Police immediately respond. The first order of business is to secure the immediate area, get help for the victims, and then start investigating. The fact that information about the shooting was released two hours after the incident is reasonable.

Now, some are arguing that information should have been released earlier. Well, what exactly should have been released. There was a shooting and ??? Remember, simply reporting something may also have negative impacts - such as causing fear and panic. There are times when it is better to get the facts straight and then make a public announcement. Sure, we live in a world of 24 hour news channels, and people tend to forget that above mention rule when reporting events.

As far as a lock down - are you kidding me? I grew up in Philadelphia. I went to and graduated from Penn, in the heart of West Philly. There is a shooting in Philadelphia nearly every hour, and a murder every day. Does the city "lock down" every time a shooting or murder occurs.

And another thing - does anyone else think it is strange that people are calling for campuses o lock down? Are students prisoners now?

I understand people are upset and angry that such a tragic event occurred. Playing the blame game, however, right now, when few of the facts are publicly know, is not the right thing to do. There will be time to review what occurred, and see what did and did not work.
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False ProphetAll-Star
959 days ago
Score 1+-
It took 2 Friggen hours before any warnings were issued Christof, that's to long. As soon as the Admin/police hear of the shooting, they should be busting their asses to warn people that there's been a shooting. A two hour response is to long
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
What kind of warning woudl you want? Hey Folks, there was a shooting. We have no clue as of yet as to why there was such a shooting. I'm sorry, I rather have the police actual investigate what happened instead of trying to give out a warning with only a few facts are known.

As far as the two hours, it seems appropriate. Shooting occurs, police are called, police respond, crime site is secured, victims are treated, investigation begins. This takes time.

Now, it must be noted that the dorm where the first shooting occurred did go into lock-down immediately. As far as notifying the rest of the university, one that has over 26,000 students, I think it is more appropriate to first get the facts before notifying others about the situation. I think, otherwise, you are risking mass panic and ultimately, it may lead to more harm than good. Simply put, the costs of what you want done far outweighs the benefits that it would produce.
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False ProphetAll-Star
959 days ago
Score 0+-
yeah, they should've sent emails, phone calls, etc. saying to find a safe, windowless space and to lock the door and stay there for a bit. I've been a part of that done with about 8,000-10,000 at a school, and it took 5 minnutes. Lets give them 20 minnutes for discovery and organization, 30 for getting people ready, and 50 for implementation. They'd have begun warning people an hour earlier, and the process would be done 20 minnutes before they started
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
False, I have been thinking about your thoughts on more rapid communications / lockdown and have been listening to the news for a roundup of the events, and I don't think anything would have changed - except that a different set of people would have been shot and killed. I say this because the shooter was already on campus. From the news reports, it seems as though the shooter went to his dorm room right after the first shooting. Therefore, if there was an immediate lock-down, you would still have the shooter, in a university building, with access to his weapons. The only thing that changes would be the fact that the second round of shooting would have occurred in the shooter's dorm and not in the engineering building. More than likely, the death count would have been the same. The only difference would be that different people would have been killed.
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False ProphetAll-Star
959 days ago
Score 0+-
I don't think so. By the time the warning would have gotten out, he'd be on his way to somewhere else, and it would have helped spare at least 1 person's life.

The blame also goes to the University for failure to aknowledge a problem.

Read what he wrote:


WARNING: the plays contain profanity and scenes with disturbing content.

  1. McBeef
  2. Mr. Brownstone
The problem was known over a year ago about him [1]
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 4+-
I for one won't remember VT as the school with the murders anymore than I think about Kent State. The incidents happened at a place, not because of it. It's some bullshit that no college needed pinned on them.
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
960 days ago
Score 3+-
I've spent 21 of my 23 years of life living on college campus's. My mother is a President of a college right now. I dont know a lot, but I do know how Universities work and function.

That being said, Va Tech can be blamed for a lot of things, ruining my dreams as a UVA fan, having the most vocal alumni base in Virginia, but its not the schools fault for what happened on Monday. People must remember, that a school like Va Tech with 26000 students is like a small town. Matter of fact it basically is the population of Blacksburg. Three weeks from now when the semister lets out that downs population drops to like 10000 people. My point is, its difficult to make a broad sweeping announcement across an entire community. Its not like Va Tech is a High School that has a loudspeaker system in every room. There was a 2 hour lag in the shootings, but when that guy left the dorms I gurantee that no one had a clue he was heading across campus to launch an assault on a classroom.

Va Tech has done a great job maintaining itself in the wake of this travisty. I only hope that prospective students and their parents realize that this incident was random senseless and crazy, but it does not represent the Va Tech or the Blacksburg community.
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TylersarticlesWaterboy
960 days ago
Score 1+-
My prayers are with all of the tragic victims of this horrible massacre. I agree with you False Prophet, why did it take the administration two hours to notify the students of the first murders? I know they thought the first two murders were an isolated incident, but with any murder on campus, the campus should be locked down immediately and all classes should be canceled. What a tragedy.
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KelsdadAll-Star
960 days ago
Score 3+-
Prayers and thoughts BigP. As someone who lost friends and neighbors on 9/11, I'm aware of the emotions you had to go thru yesterday and today, and for awhile yet in the future. If I can do anything, let me know.
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Anonymous Fanatic #2
959 days ago
Score 3+-
Cristof: "I went to and graduated from Penn, in the heart of West Philly. There is a shooting in Philadelphia nearly every hour, and a murder every day."

Sounds like lax gun laws are the way to go.

Spare me the rhetoric over the right to bear arms for self defense. Has there ever been an incident when an innocent and responsible gun owner was able to save the day and prevent an attack by wielding their own concealed handgun? The logic for less gun control and vigilante justice is laughable; as if we're living in Tombstone. Does it make more sense to put guns into the hands of 26,000 college students or to take the gun out of the hand of 1 individual? There is heaps of scientific evidence that shows if guns are less accessible there is less violence, full stop. I may be a red-blooded southern American, but I've got sense enough to trust scientists over Charlton Heston.

I'm not interested in hearing "now is not the time." We need to get our heads out of the sand and start taking responsibility for the ethics of our country.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
I don't think I ever said that 26,000 cllege students should have guns. Heck, I don't think I said that anyone should have a gun. Personally, it is up to the individual whether to have a gun or not.

I have been around guns all of my life. My dad is still a police detective (in Philly). I am an Eagle Scout. I have fired guns and rifles in the past, and will do so in the future. I have, however, a great deal of respect for what a gun can do and what damage it can inflict.

Now to turn a gun and fire out a fellow human, that is something I have never done, and hope to never do. It takes a lot to fire a gun at a human, with the knowledge of what the end result is likely going to be. And that is the PROBLEM. people know what the harm is going to be, yet they still fire away. Taking away the legal gun may initially slow the murder rate, but it will quickly increase and likely surpass the past murder rate - be it through the use of illegal guns and / or other weapons of violence.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
As with anything else on this site, Christof, show me stats. Where are the stats that support the idea that gun control would increase the murder rate? So far we have tow examples, Australia and the UK, that say otherwise.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
And of course that is two examples, not tow examples.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Since the US has never banned guns, there are no on-target stats to support my position. I, however, would like to refer you to historical crime and violence rates in the US. Most notably, look at the crime and violence rates right before prohibition, during prohibition, and right-after prohibition. If you look at those statistics, you will see an increase in crime and violence during prohibition, which then tailed off after prohibition ended. I am arguing that such a result would again occur if you banned guns in the United States today.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
I appreciate your data—you are the first I have heard here or otherwise to provide real evidence to support the argument, rather than pure supposition.

But I'm not sure that is the same thing. Violence escalated around Prohibition because people wanted their alcohol. I don't see the same thing happening in regards to gun control. Violence escalates because people want guns? They don't have the guns to commit the violence. I think your case calls for a leap to some degree.

I admit my argument (Australia and the UK) also requires a leap—would the results there be replicated in the US? My defense for the leap is that these are Western countries that are very similar to the US. I think the leap is justified.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
First off, if you ban guns. What do you do with those who have guns now? What do you do with those who don't want to give up there guns and are willing to fight for them. Right there, violence will increase. I think guns are engrained in the American society as much as alcohol was a century ago. Hence, a black market will quickly appear for those who want guns. And if you don't think it won't, then may I reference the illegal drug trade?
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Two comment threads are finally merging. See my response to these questions below.
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EnyboDiv-I Stud
959 days ago
Score 0+-
To the AF: Yes, there have been incidents where citizens carrying guns have prevented worse crimes.

http://www.w.../detail.html
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KelsdadAll-Star
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Most guns used in US crimes ARE illegal. Anyone caught with an unlicensed firearm goes to prison for 10 years, no probation. If you're not a citizen, deported for life. Mandatory sentence, no trial. You get caught with five, then your sentence is 50. Problem solved. This joker is pissed at his girlfriend so he takes it out on fifty some odd innocent people? And then takes the pussy way out instead of answering for what he did?
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
What is an illegal gun? A stolen registered handgun? A gun stolen from a legal firearms dealer? Chances are, an illegal gun started as a legal gun.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Illegal guns, today, are those that are not registered to the individual that uses it. For example it is common place in the inner city for family members - wives, girlfriends, etc. - to purchase guns and then give them to a guy who then uses them.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Exactly, Christof. A legal gun becomes an illegal gun. If that family member/friend cannot purchase the legal gun, they can't give it to someone else for illegal purposes.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
If you don't make changes in the culture and the society in general, and go and ban guns, you simply will replace the family members buying guns and put in place a smuggling, black-market for guns, where the one who will use the gun will go and buy directly. And I firmly beleive that a smuggling, black-market for guns will create far more violence than we currently see in the US.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Again, I am all for reform in society as well. And there would be a black market created. This is unfortunate, but likely would be inaccessible to most people. The VTech killer doesn't strike me as the type with the connections or ability to trade on the black market. I don't see how a black market would increase violence more than the ability to buy a gun at your local WalMart.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
The V-Tech shooter filed off the serial numbers on the guns. Medical personnel have already commented that they were shocked by the shooter's ability. I believe one doctor said all gun shot victims were shot at least 3 times. This tells me that the shooter practice a lot prior to the shooting.

Now, you are telling me that he would not discover a black-market source for a gun. I think, he would. And even if he did not, he would find another means to do a mass murder. Instead of a gun, he could just head to the local Wal-Mart to buy household cleaners and chemicals, and either make a bomb or a chemical weapon. You know that the recipe for such things are available over the Net.

So again, I will state that stricter gun laws would not have pervented this shooting.
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JB82Div-I Stud
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Colin Cowherd this morning said that you can make a campus as big as VA Tech secure like a prison, but it won't take away the loonies like the one in Blacksburg.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
–Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) My prayers and condolences to the victims, their families, and anyone else associated with Virginia Tech.
Permalink | Reply
BigPPupMajor Leaguer
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Implimenting gun control laws in the United States in this point, is like MLB putting in a no steroid law after the damage has already been done.

Handguns, riffles, and whatever else are already all over the US and in peoples households. So putting a gun law is not going ot make all those guns just magically go away. What it actually does is it makes them go under the radar because they will be illegal, and a tracking system for them will not exist.

Gun laws are not the answer. Fix the people not the gun.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Actually, a no steroid law would be a great thing. No, wouldn't change the past seasons, but it would prevent further cheating.

But that isn't the same thing. You are correct about the guns already out there. What Australia did was have a government run buy back program. Not everyone turned their gun in, but many did, taking all of those guns out of circulation and off the streets.

If not a gun ban (which I have not called for, by the way), can we at least agree on stricter regulation of guns? I haven't checked for updates the past few hours, but last I heard, the VTech perp had a receipt for at least one of his guns and had been identified as having emotional issues and violent tendencies. There is no reason he should have been allowed to buy a gun.
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Henry buttsLittle Leaguer
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Obviously laws don't make existing guns go away magically. Nothing works that way. Australia did a buyback period and guns were exchanged for money, no questions asked. Not all guns are banned, and it is still possible to be a registered owner and to use guns for hunting, collecting, etc. But the law states "self defense" is not an acceptable reason for owning a gun.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Taytay - even stricter laws would not have prevented the V-Tech shooting. The shooter did not have a criminal record. Yes, some thought he was mentally unstable, but nothing on his official record indicated that.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Beat you to it by one minute, Henry.
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Exactly Christof, the shooter was unstable, but even that was difficult to tell he would do what he did. Sure he wrote some dark poetry, we all have. Hell Ive written plenty of it in the last 24 hrs. Im a gun owner does it mean Im going onto a rampage tonight? NO
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Of course stricter laws could have prevented it.

'Any person referred for a mental/emotional condition or violent tendencies shall not be allowed to purchase a gun.'

Done.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Taytay - How would you prove mental / emotional conditions and violent tendencies if there is record of them. That is the case here.

I know, your reply will likely be to give mental / emotional tests to individuals who want to buy guns. However, those exams will be made public, and you can easily circumvent them (i.e. - give false answers).

Remember the V-Tech shooter filed out the serial # on those guns. He planned this out long and hard. Stricter gun laws would not have prevented this shooting.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 1+-
I don't need to define him as having a mental/emotional condition or violent tendencies—his professors referred him for counseling. A counselor's report should throw up a red flag for a potential gun buyer. It doesn't have to be permanent: if you want to allow guns, then at least make it a temporary deal that could be later cleared from their record.
Permalink
ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
How would you know he was referred to a counselor? Asking him? He can easily lie and say no. Like I said, his official record was clear.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 1+-
As I said, have counselor and psyche reports show up just like criminal records.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
So you want the government to know about any type of counseling you receive during your life. You realize, that is what you are proposing.
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Davis21wylieMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Exactly.
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Davis21wylieMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Dude was a nutcase. He shouldn't have been anywhere near a gun.
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Henry buttsLittle Leaguer
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Virginia does not require gun owners to be licensed or arms to be registered. You can walk into a shop and buy a gun. There is no cooling-off period, but the purchase of handguns is limited to one a month.

Virginia does require a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Discuss.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Of course stricter laws could have prevented it.

'Any person referred for a mental/emotional condition or violent tendencies shall not be allowed to purchase a gun.'

Done.
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Again how do you qualify who is stable or unstable? Im upset right now Im pissed off should I be disqualified for owned a gun forever?
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Henry buttsLittle Leaguer
959 days ago
Score 0+-
If Virginia doesn't require owners to be licensed or guns to be registered then who can know who has the "legal" and "illegal" guns.
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
959 days ago
Score 1+-
It doesnt matter if they are legal or not. The bottem line is, if someone wants to do something of this nature they are going to do it. YOu can make all the laws you want, you can blame the lack of laws all you want. However, they are not the problem. The problem is the people. How do we help people who are disturbed. How do we help our youth (people my age) give them the support they need so they do not get to the point that they feel they need to kill or hurt 50
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Henry buttsLittle Leaguer
959 days ago
Score -1+-
A quote from Georgie Dubya:

"I think when a guy walks in and shoots 32 people it's going to cause there to be a lot of policy debate. Now is not the time to do the debate until we're actually certain about what happened."

Dear Mr. President: If you are uncertain about what happened, allow me to explain: A guy walked in and shot 32 people.

Luby's, Columbine, Amish schoolchildren, V Tech students and faculty...How many times does this have to happen before we get real action from our policymakers?
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 1+-
I think, those mass murders that you listed, would have still occurred, even if there were stricter gun controls or if guns were banned. Either the shooters would have found a black market for guns and got one(s) from there, or would have used other weapons (bombs, etc.). By doing the latter, the number of those who died may have been much higher in each event.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 0+-
I think we may have reached the 'agree to disagree' point. Let me say that I appreciate Christof and the others who have commented here, hopefully myself included, who managed to keep an emotional and incendiary topic reasonable and respectful. As I said elsewhere, that's one of the many great things about the Chair. And again, prayers for those affected, as well for the rest of society who are trying to figure out what to do now.
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KelsdadAll-Star
959 days ago
Score 2+-
Murders like this happen because the perpetrator has access to the weapons. If it was almost impossible to get a gun, or afford one, then they don't make the plans. Its like going to a sporting event, I can go buy a bleacher seat for 10 bucks, but I couldnt go if they cost a thousand. There is no legitimate reason for anyone to own a gun unless you are in law enforcement, and even those weaspons are government issued and not personal property. You want to get a hunting license? The cost of "renting" the gun comes with the cost of the permit, and the penalty for misuse should be so unbelievably severe the thought wouldn't cross your mind. Like having your house seized. Gun smuggling is certainly an issue that needs to be addressed and may be something which can never be eliminated 100%, but as Alex said, the reason why this could never happen in Europe is because the government leaders actually got off their asses and did something about it.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Kesdad - anything can become a weapon. Like I said earlier, a person can go to the local Wal-Mart or Home Depot, buy a bunch of chemicals, and kill more than the V-Tech shooter did. And, as an added bonus, the costs of those chemicals would be a fraction of what the V-Tech shooter spent on the two guns he purchased. Therefore, I harken back to what I have said above - banning guns or putting in place stricter gun laws will not make things better. The real problem is the culture and society that we live in. Ban guns, and you still have weapons - weapons that are cheaper and more deadly than guns are - readily available. And that does not include the black market for guns that would rapidly spring up.
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
959 days ago
Score 5+-
What the hell Christof, gets a shout out and I dont? I cant believe this. I will say, I am thankfull to the Chair, for giving myself and everyone a forum to have such a civilized discussion. Who says that sports fans are just big meat heads. Id also like ot take the opportunity to thank everyone for their thoughts and their prayers during this time in my life. I deeply do appreciate it.
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 1+-
And thanks to BigPPup. Sorry, I gave you a plus vote as an apology.
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KelsdadAll-Star
959 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree Christof, but you have to start somewhere. And while changing society is the right thing, its also impossible. I'm old enough to remember my father beating my ass for something and today for some kid to call the cops if his parents spanked him. That's what's wrong with society.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Starting somewhere may not be the best way to approach this. Just doing something for something's sake may end creating an environment where there is more and deadlier violence.

I do not agree that we cannot change society. Society is a creation of mankind. If we created it, we can change it. It won't be easy, but it is possible.

And you are also correct about parents. One of the core factors as to the increase in violence is a culture and society that is filled with 1 parent or no parent households. Many parents are not parenting, and when their kids screw up, claim that their kids are good. This, however, can quickly change, if peer pressure is increased.
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DRE-LOAAA-er
959 days ago
Score 11+-
First off, I'd like to extend my heart and my deepest sympathy for the families of the victims of this horrible tragedy and for anyone else associated with Virginia Tech, especially our own BigPPup. In my view, I find it unacceptable for Virginia Tech to go two hours without putting the campus on lockdown when the gunman was still on the loose. There was a shooting last year in Virginia Tech in which they actually caught the gunman in one of the dorms and they still put the campus on lockdown!! What happened this time? That's my only beef. I have always been a big proponent of gun control. Near my job in New York, there's a gun store and at the deli next to the store there are actual magazines selling 9mm guns and semi-automatic weapons. When are the state governments and the federal government going to step up to the plate and do something about this issue? But there is a bigger issue at hand. It's our culture. It is time for us to measure our moral compass as a nation. It is time to measure exactly where our ethics have gone. Our lack of morality and a total lack of respect for life has become all too apparent. I have a 14 year old brother and I'm absolutely concerned of what type of society he is going to have to endure as he becomes a full-fledged teen. So yes, There MUST be gun control. Yes, there must be tougher gun laws. But the biggest issue that needs the greatest change is the direction of our culture and society. A culture that glorifies and sensationalizes violence and crime and uses it as entertainment. You know a change is needed when you see two six year olds being videotaped on fighting one another while their PARENTS were encouraging them to KEEP FIGHTING!!! Then they posted it on Youtube! I kid you not. I wonder when we are going to get the point to when we rise up as one. I wonder when our society will become sick and tired of and sick and tired. Cuz I am. But situations like this put life in perspective for us. We need to be thankful for every morning we wake up and be thankful for each and every situation we go through no matter how bad it may be. There's a lesson in everything and an opportunity to gain perspective and faith. I'm especially thankful that I'm part of the greatest blog on the information superhighway. This has to be the only blog that allows such civil and thoughtful decision on such a bitter topic. May God bring comfort and peace to all those associated with Virginia Tech.
Permalink | Reply
ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 2+-
The sad thing is, tougher gun controls would not have prevented this from occuring. The V-Tech shooter would still have obtained the weapons. VA does have a one gun per month rule. VA could demand more on the reigstration end, paperwork wise, but, even a more stringent background check would not have picked up any red flags. The shooter did not have a previous criminal record.

Yes, it is true, that he was unstable. However, unless you want to permit the government to obtain all counseling records a person has, it would never come up.

And Dre-Lo - you made excellent points here!
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Taytay 24All-American
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Government access to counseling records for the purpose of keeping guns out of the hands of the unfit would have possibly prevented the VTech killer from obtaining a gun and potentially saved 32 innocent lives. I am willing to accept this for this purpose when records are held in the strictest confidence—the seller needs to know nothing other than 'no sale'.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Taytay - No way will the American public allow access to records regarding mental health and counseling to the government. NO WAY. That idea would be shot down and based so quickly by civil liberties advocates that you would think you are the enemy.
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DRE-LOAAA-er
959 days ago
Score 4+-
Everybody made excellent points. But I really believe that between the incident with Imus and the Rutgers woman's basketball team and now his horrific tragedy this week that there is a time for a change in the way we proceed as a society or culture. The opportunity has presented himself. Will we walk through the door?
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PSU ROCKSVarsity Captain
959 days ago
Score 1+-
no we never do
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
I expect one day that we will do so. It won't be now, because people are not fed up enough and there is not a structure in place among the grass roots to get changes enacted.
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PSU ROCKSVarsity Captain
959 days ago
Score 1+-
people use that right to bare arms cause they never think it will happen to them they thinks its isolated there ignorant if only it happened to them then they would complain about how easy guns r to get. In the end people only care if affects them personally. prayers to the families of VT and columbine and any other masacre.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
959 days ago
Score 1+-
In 1973, total violent crime was at 47.7 per 1,000 people. It peaked at 52.3 in 1981. In 2005 it hit a low point since 1973 at 21.0. Rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault are all at their lowest points right now. Where is this "huge increase" in violence?
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Check the murder rate. Yes major crimes, besides murder, is down. But murders are up. Especially in the inner city.
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Davis21wylieMVP
959 days ago
Score 1+-
According to Bureau of Justice Statistics, homicide rates recently declined to levels last seen before 1970. The homicide rate doubled from the mid 1960's to the late 1970's. In 1980, it peaked at 10.2 per 100,000 population and subsequently fell off to 7.9 per 100,000 in 1985. It rose again in the late 1980's and early 1990's to a peak of 9.8 per 100,000 in 1991. Since then, the rate has declined, reaching 6.8 per 100,000 by 1997.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Actually, the murder rate is at its lowest point since 1966.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
959 days ago
Score 0+-
D21, you beat me to it.
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Davis21wylieMVP
959 days ago
Score 1+-
And does anyone care to know why crime is down?
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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Exactly D21W, the easiest way to reduce crime statistics is to legalise things that would previously have been crimes. We do that all the time, it seems. We wanted to reduce inflation in this country, so the Government decided to take some things out of the calculation. The result is apparently lower inflation.
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ChristofMVP
959 days ago
Score 0+-
Davis - your dats set ends in 1997. What has happened since? Take, for example , Philadelphia. Philly murder rate dropped to under 300 five years ago. Now? It is over 400 and rising.
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Davis21wylieMVP
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Okay, I found more recent national murder rates (per 100,000):

2001: 5.6 2002: 5.6 2003: 5.7 2004: 5.5 2005: 5.6

FBI data runs out in 2005. NY and Philly's rates have exploded recently, which may or may not be statistically significant.

I guess my point on the abortion-prevents-crime thing is that each side of the gun-control debate is right -- and wrong. Crime dropped significantly in the early 90's, and nobody knew why. They thought maybe it was tougher gun laws, etc., but it turned out to be the simple fact that abortions became frequent about 15-20 years earlier -- thereby eliminating from the population millions of potential criminals. So, did gun control play a role, too? Maybe. I think the psych record suggestion above (NOT giving access of records to gun dealers, but simply having a red flag come up on their background check, making a sale impossible) is a good one, because mentally unstable people like Cho Seung-Hui should not be able to buy guns, period. But the abortion study indicates that we should mainly focus on the people committing crimes... If you don't change the mindset of violent people (or get them off the street at least), no amount of gun control legislation will make a difference.
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Davis21wylieMVP
959 days ago
Score 1+-
Yeah, Alex, you missed the point on the abortion link. It reduced violent crime (abortion was never considered a violent crime before Roe v. Wade), because 20 years after it was legalized -- when the wave of impoverished potential criminals would have come of age -- they weren't around to commit crimes, because they had never been born. Most abortions are done by poor mothers, most future criminals are born in poverty, you do the math. This is not an endorsement of abortion, by the way. Just a clarification. And the point of even bringing abortion up was to say that crimes are more effectively prevented by changing the people who would commit them (in this extreme case, preventing them from being born, though you can't in good conscience recommend that course of action), rather than changing laws regarding the weapons used to commit crimes.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
959 days ago
Score 2+-
Yeah, D21, I read that in Freakonomics, also by Steven Levitt. What it helps to prove is that poverty is a big, big reason for crime. I would imagine fighting poverty would be a far greater, and far more practical, tool at lowering the already low crime rate than trying to fix the mentality of humans.
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Davis21wylieMVP
959 days ago
Score 2+-
That's what I meant. We need to "fix" the many factors (poverty being a major, major one) that bring about the criminal mindset, rather than rely heavily on band-aids like gun-control laws.
Permalink
Taytay 24All-American
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Good morning, all. Glad to see that the anti-gun control crowd has moved towards real solutions—'change in society' sounds good, but is really only empty rhetoric. Poverty issues is something tangible.

But how do we fight poverty? I would suggest things such as universal health care, raising minimum wage and fixing the tax code, but these things tend to be opposed by people who are also against gun control.

Thoughts?
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ChristofMVP
958 days ago
Score 2+-
Base way to fight poverty is thru education. A good education open doors and raises income. The problem is: many who are poor and live in poverty don't value education. Hence, grass roots - i.e. - community leaders, community groups - must gear up and win the hearts and minds of their neighbors.

Universal healthcare sounds great, but a single, gov't sponsored plan will not solve the problems. It would only make things worse. Personally, the best way to solve the health care mess is to move health care from an employee benefit to one that is controlled by the individual (in a similar fashion as car insurance). Have the states regulate the health insurance industry thereafter, and have the state, and to a lesser degree, the fed gov't provide subsidies for the working poor to obtain health insurance thru private firms. (Those in poverty would still be on Medicaid.)

Min Wage Increase - those who receive the most from such an increase are white kids. Earned Income Credit has a greater impact on the poor than a min wage increase.

Taxes - I would blow up the entire income tax system and move to a progressive sales tax - where basic living items are taxed at the lowest level, and luxury items taxed at a higher level. This, however, will nto change, for many lawyers and accountants are making a bundle, and will fight tooth and nail to keep the current system in place.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Christof, I agree with almost all of what you said. The government needs to spend a lot more on education and/or find a way to get poor kids into school. Earned Income Tax Credit is definitely the way to go.
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ChristofMVP
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Actually, the gov't is getting to a point where it is beginning to overspend on education. What the gov't needs to do is set up benchmarks to see what programs and styles are working, and what are not. Thereafter, the money should be re-allocated accordingly.

However, the gov't will not be able to change the cycle of poverty and lack of value associated with an education that is found among those living in poverty. Simply put, a faceless bureaucracy will not solve this problem.

What is required is hard-core, in your face peer pressure efforts.
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Anonymous Fanatic #3
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Great points all Christof, but as a resident of the southwest I can tell you our number one issue is immigration. This is a country wide concern, and until the government stops footing the bill for millions of people who haven't earned that right, we can't afford to do anything else anywhere. And healthcare and immigration go together. When a system allows a US citizen to be denied a prescription because it isn't covered, but provides the same prescription to an unemployed non citizen, then there is a problem. We're on the right track but we're not moving fast enough.
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KelsdadAll-Star
958 days ago
Score 0+-
above was me
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Taytay 24All-American
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Education fights poverty in the long run, but does nothing to fight poverty today—and that's coming from me, a teacher. Kids have a hard time taking school seriously when they come to school hungry or the electricity got cut off at home. How can we impact poverty right now—calling on community groups winning hearts is getting vague again.

Don't see how universal healthcare makes things worse. It gives access to care, particularly preventative care, to everyone. How is this a bad thing?

The Earned Income Tax Credit is great, but has been in effect since 1975 and we still have poverty, so clearly more in needed. Adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage has moved backwards over the past thirty years. And their are plenty of low income families trying to survive at or near minimum wage. It isn't just white kids working at the mall.

I agree with your assessment of the tax system. The government is running record deficits while the wealthy continue to benefit from ridiculous tax breaks. They don't pay their share for a system that allowed them to earn the wealth in the first place.

Not to get overly political, but Christof, you sound like your heart leans left but your ideas are all grounded on the right, probably because of how you were raised. That's exactly where I was two years ago. My advice: don't be afraid of to consider new ideas.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
958 days ago
Score 0+-
I, and I presume Christof, weren't saying the EITC as it is will fix poverty, but widening the scope of EITC would go a long way, much more than raising the minimum wage.
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ChristofMVP
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Taytay - EITC has a far greater impact on re-distributing $$ to the poor than does the min wage. Studies have clearly shown this to be the case. The problem witht the EITC is that it has not been promoted. Just today, I saw a news article that stated that about $8B of EITC money does not get distributed, because taxpayers do not about the program.

Like I said, those working on min wage are mostly white kids working part-time during the school year or summer. You are not going to effect the poor by increasing the min wage.

As far as universal healthcare, universal healthcare will not control the costs involved with the healthcare. Actually, by making a single gov't program and eliminating private insurance, you take away competition that drives efficiency and cost-reductions. So, in the end, everyone may have "healthcare", but the costs associated will be drastically higher. And to pay for that, either taxes will be increases, or the deficit will explode.

Now as far as you saying that the rich are not paying taxes, I disagree. For example, the Top 1% of earners, which begins at $328,000 (adjusted gross income) and is 19% of all income earned, pays 36.9% of the total tax burden in the US.

Expanding to the Top 5%, that includes anyone making $137,000 AGI or above. 33% of all income earned is included here. These folks pay 57% of the total tax burden.

Expanding further to the Top 10%, which includes anyone making $99,100 AGI or more, this group accounts for 44% of all income earned in the US. This groups pays 68% of total US tax burden.

Now for the bottom 50% of income earners, they are responsible for 3.3% of total US tax burden.

The argument over the rich not paying taxes is just political fodder. In reality, it is simply not true.

As far as considering ideas, I am always open to new ideas.
Permalink
ChristofMVP
958 days ago
Score 0+-
BTW - A comment on the tax breaks. Almost all of the tax breaks are geared to the middle class. It is not the rich that are getting the tax breaks in this system.
Permalink
Taytay 24All-American
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Then by all means, let's widen the EITC's scope. I'm all for it if it can aid the problem. Please correct me if I am wrong, because I am not up to speed on the EITC, but isn't this a tax credit that realistically only benefits the recipients at tax time? Isn't it a once a year deal? Again, I applaud the effort, but if I have that right, that does nothing to help the rest of the year, paycheck to paycheck, when the mortgage is due, when the electric bill comes, when it's dinner time and when your kid needs new shoes.
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Taytay 24All-American
958 days ago
Score 1+-
Why does everyone in America think that universal health care removes competition? This is simply not true. You still choose your doctor, the only difference is that instead of pulling out your checkbook when you leave, you pull out your health care card. Doctors still have to provide good service or they lose their patients. I think we have quickly reached another agree to disagree point on the tax system. I feel the wealthy have a responsibility to repay the system that enabled them to get wealthy in the first place, but instead they pass laws to decrease that responsibility.
Permalink
ChristofMVP
958 days ago
Score 0+-
As far as healt insurance - going to universal healthcare, does not contain costs. Ok, you can still go to whatever doctor you want to. But there is no pressure for the doctor to become more efficient, nor the lab, nor anyone else in the health industry. So, in the end, the only thing that you are doing is shifting the cost to the gov't, who will then shift it back to the taxpayers. And in the process, you will likely lose efficiency. Remember, doctors are the problem with the healthcare system. The problem are the costs.

Having taken a federal income tax class in law school, I can honestly tell you that the rich are not benefiting from tax breaks. You may argue that their max tax rate is too low, but, tax breaks, they do not exist. Tax breaks are geared to the middle class, actually, are geared toward the swing voters in elections. Those tax breaks tend to decrease and be eliminated as income crosses the $200+ threshold.

Sadly, no one really knows how the yax system actually works. The mass media just provides the basic tax rates or stories about people complaining about the tax rate being too high / too low / unfair in some form or fashion. Politicians don't explain it - they simply parrot whatever comments excites their poltical base. And the real winners - accountants and tax lawyers - who charge $$ to help people file their taxes.
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #4
958 days ago
Score 1+-
I'd like to hear about experiences from those in countries with socialized medicine. I've experienced the US system and have the good fortune to live in a country where there is universal health cover, and I can say the quality of care is no different between the two. If anything, it's better under the socialized system because I don't have to worry about an insurance company coming back 6 months after a treatment and cutting off what they are willing to pay on a doctor's bill (has happened). If I switch jobs I don't have to worry about my new insurance company refusing to treat allergies, back problems, high cholesterol, etc on the grounds of it being a "pre-existing condition." Prescriptions are cheap. Labwork is cheap. I don't have to wait any longer for results than I did in the US. When Americans say healthcare will suffer if their system goes to a public system it makes me laugh. Look at the countries where quality of life is highest and rates of disease are lowest: All have socialized healthcare systems.
Permalink
Taytay 24All-American
958 days ago
Score 0+-
That has been my experience in Australia as well. No complications, no waits, no problems. It has been wonderful. Seems like every time I saw a doctor and dealt with insurance in the US there was an issue. Not the case here. And the best part is that it provides basic health care for everyone, even the poor. Preventative care leads to a better quality of life, which in turn benefits everyone.
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KelsdadAll-Star
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Kids have been going to school hungry since the beginning of time and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. Maybe more adults in distressed neighborhoods would have jobs at WalMart or delivering pizza if these jobs weren't given to illegals? Maybe if the immigration situation was fixed there would be more money in the coffers to subsidize poverty and keep those kids fed and the lights on?
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Christof, correct me if I'm wrong, but in order for tax credits to be claimed, hence distributed, doesn't one have to file a federal tas return? And people living below the poverty level are exempt from filing. Thus their unawareness of the credit?
Permalink | Reply
ChristofMVP
958 days ago
Score 0+-
Awareness of the EITC has been a big problem. This problem, however, can quikcly be fixed.
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