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Pitch Counts: Good or Bad Thing For Pitchers?

12
Vote

by user Niteowl049

Don't know exactly when it became the thing to do to remove pitchers from games when they exceeded the 100 pitch mark but am wondering if it is helping or hurting pitchers to be removed so soon. Statistically it is hurting pitchers preventing pitchers from finishing games they were winning and sometimes costing them wins when shoddy bullpen work turns a win into a loss. It also may prevent pitchers from having 300 strikeouts in a season and may have something to do with no pitcher winning 20 games last season.

It may make it harder to win 300 games in a career and reduce number of high strikeout games since strikeout pitchers make more pitches to get strikeouts. Managers can't be blamed since the front office doesn't want a high salaried pitcher making 120-130 pitches in a game worried that it may be too much stress on their arm.

Would like to know the pitch counts back in the 1940's when pitchers were expected to finish a game and told that by managers. Some pitching coaches like Leo Mazzone think more throwing is better for the arm but that must be a minority view because it is an unspoken rule that pitchers come out of the game after 100 pitches.

Pitch counts are making it impossible to compare complete games and shutout records of pitchers today with other eras because they pitched deeper into games back then. For instance, Bert Blyleven who finished his career in 1992 had 60 shutouts. is 8th on alltime list. Among active pitchers today Roger Clemens leads in shutouts with 46 with Randy Johnson next with 37 shutouts. At their age neither is expected pitch a complete game so have little or no chance of pitching a shutout.


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JuTMSY4Legend
917 days ago
Score 0+-
Its stupid to assign at arbitrary number for pitchers...(100 being the number)...not too long ago, pitchers were throwing way more and you didn't really notice...its ridiculous...
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IlliniEdVarsity
917 days ago
Score 3+-
Pitch counts are bad. It was only 20 years ago that Noal Ryan was averaging about 130 pitches per outing. Last time I checked his arm seemed to hold up pretty well. Hell, in one game I think he once pitched 170+ pitches. That is maddening now adays. I think the biggest problem isnt that there are pitch counts in the pros. That is almost a direct result of hte bigger issue. That would be pitch counts as kids. Kids now adays arent allowed to build up arm strenth. They dont throw like they used too. Kids have strict innings that they can pitch and only a certian number of pitches they can throw. They are trying to prevent arm trouble. If you want to prevent arm trouble as a kid, stop teaching them curve balls at the age of 11. That is what screws up a kids arm more then anything. Throwing curveballs when the arm and shoulder arent developed enough to handle it. As a kid you need to learn two pitches to be effective. A fastball and a changeup. Stick with those twop pitches till you atleast get into high school.
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JuTMSY4Legend
917 days ago
Score 0+-
Bingo, curves are an arm killer...and was a point of major emphasis in little leagues in my area...
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Taytay 24All-American
917 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm not saying pitch counts are good, but Nolan Ryan was a freak. I wouldn't use him as a sample to generalize for all pitchers.
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JuTMSY4Legend
917 days ago
Score 0+-
ok, tim wakefield then...
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Taytay 24All-American
917 days ago
Score 0+-
What I mean is that everyone is different. Some guys can go the distance, while other guys wear out quickly. On the other hand, I think it's like most things: people tend to give you what you expect from them. If you expect pitchers to go into the eighth inning or beyond, they'll tend to do it. If you only expect them to go five or six, they'll sink to htat level.
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IlliniEdVarsity
917 days ago
Score -1+-
Go look back at pitchers from that era as a whole. I remember a study that was done maybe two years ago comparing hte average number of pitches thrown by a starter now verses 30 years ago. ON average it was 130 + pitches per then verses just over 100 now. Its a farce. Yes I know Ryan was a freak, but you never heard about pitchers breaking down like they do now. Back then pitching 250-300 was close to the norm. Why didnt their arms have issues? My theory is because they werent babied as kids and they pitched everyday and learned to pitch everyday.
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JuTMSY4Legend
917 days ago
Score 0+-
it was a joke, wake can pitch forever, that's why i said it...
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Taytay 24All-American
917 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree with that, Ed. Think that plays into my expectations theory, too. Pitchers then were expected to throw complete games, so more often than not, they did. Pitchers are generally told that throwing five or six is enough today, so that's what they do.
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JamelAll-American
917 days ago
Score 0+-
Ed my main man- I was talking to an orthopedic surgeon one day about this- they compared MRI's of Ryans shoulder to that of other major league pitchers and found out that his shoulder joints had been formed in a way due to so much pitching as a youngster that it was now ideal for pitching-- he told me that since that joints and growth plates are still open and developing that this was possible- since little league pussies these kids they are forming "normal" adult shoulders and joints that aren't meant to throw so many pitches- he believes this is what is screwing up major league pitchers today. He has the opposite theory-- throw as much as a kid as possible- don't worry about the shoulder or the elbow (big believer in having them throw curve balls right away). Anyway, I just thought it was interesting.
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I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
917 days ago
Score 2+-
MLB pitchers are adults and professional athletes that should know their bodies well enough to say "I'm done coach." Granted a lot of them are too prideful to say so, but they should be able to put the team first and be honest. Whether or not a pitcher is willing to do so is a glimpse of their character and will show a team who they have on their team. So to make a short story long, pitch counts are dumb.
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JuTMSY4Legend
917 days ago
Score 1+-
That can go either way...but there's a lot more to managing than counting the number of pitches...its being able to tell when a pitcher is done and when he's just got a high pitch count, but still got it... You gotta respect a guy who'll gut it out for you, but if he's just gonna throw some meat, then you want him out anyways...
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JamelAll-American
917 days ago
Score 0+-
Pitch count-- what has the majors become- Little League??-- I say when the pitcher collapses from exhaustion then he's done

What's next- hooking them up with wires and doing computer analysis on when their balls get sweaty- as soon as that happens your out??? The only reason all these young guys are getting hurt is because all the junk they put in their bodies are weakining their ligaments and tendons-

Pitch count out!!!
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
917 days ago
Score 0+-
Didn't Mark Prior's father come up with that contraption?
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IlliniEdVarsity
917 days ago
Score 0+-
I hear throwing with a towel is a great way to get game ready and have a strong arm. ASk Prior and Wood about it.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
917 days ago
Score 0+-
Prior Sr. U.S. patent#233992883892572-AZ12
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Davis21wylieMVP
916 days ago
Score 0+-
http://www.h...ath-wrought/
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Willf123JV Squad
916 days ago
Score 0+-
The use of aluminum bats has caused pitchers to use more breaking stuff because they cant jam hitters with an inside fastball. Watch a college game sometime and tell me that some of the homers hit could be duplicated with a wooden bat. Watch a game and tell me that scores of 15-14 and 12 pitchers used in the game isnt ridiculous.
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Willf123JV Squad
916 days ago
Score 1+-
Pitchers years ago didnt have to worry about the DH and could pace themselves through the easier part of the lineup.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 0+-
I think you're right about aluminum bats, but generally pitchers have better stats in the NL where there is no DH...and if you're talking about college of high school...even if there wasn't a DH, the pitcher was generally a good hitter...
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Willf123JV Squad
916 days ago
Score 1+-
Its not getting to 100 pitchers that causes them to break down because starters build up the stamina for that, roughly 5-6 innings. Its pitch #101, 102 etc. with each pitch becoming exponentially more damaging than the one before it.
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Willf123JV Squad
916 days ago
Score 1+-
Also, at least where I live, all the baseball fields I see are empty. Kids dont play pickup baseball like they do football and basketball. If they play baseball its their 2nd or 3rd sport.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Well that's different...its a lot harder to play baseball...you need at least 12 kids and closer to 16 (or obviously 18)...whereas you can play basketball with as little as 4 or football with 6 or so... When I was younger, we didn't necessarily play baseball, but we played a lot of catch and other games...
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Willf123JV Squad
916 days ago
Score 0+-
exactly
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MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Wasn't it Al Leiter who almost never recovered from a 140 pitch evening on a cold night at Yankee Stadium? I think Pitch counts are important for maintaining pitchers health.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
916 days ago
Score 1+-
Pitch counts are important for young pitchers. You don't get injured by throwing, you get injured by throwing while tired. Let them throw a lot - just not a lot at one time. After 25, let them loose to do what they'll do. There's been studies on this. Also, pitchers did throw more in the past. And you don't hear about them breaking down. Why? Because you don't hear about the could-have-beens. We forget about those. There were plenty of pitchers in the past that had problems. Like that one Sandy Koufax guy (dunno if you've heard of him). The ones that made it through were the Ryans. You never hear about the Woods and Priors of the past.
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Niteowl049AAA-er
916 days ago
Score 1+-
Speaking of Prior and Wood the season will be half over in about 20 games and they still haven't made a pitch this season. When will the Cubs cut their losses and let them go? The two combined have pitched in only 13 games in the last year and a half.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
916 days ago
Score 2+-
The Cubs are gonna auction them off on EBay to help raise money to bring over A-Rod. This team sucks (yup, I'm a Cubs fan). Rumor has it that if you have the winning bid for both, you also get Neifi Perez.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 0+-
One of them is a free agent at the end of the season (wood?) and I don't think there's any intent to sign him...no doubt a few teams will bite, but one team will take a larger calculated risk (paying him the most) to get him, with the hope he will get healthy...its worth a shot depending on the price tag...especially in a world where gil meche gets $11 a year and even adam eaton (regardless of his last 2 starts) gets around $8
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Great Neifi Perez...Rey Ordonez would be proud...
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Wood and Prior in Yankee pinstripes in 2008. Steinbrenner won't be able to resist signing these guys.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 0+-
You think they got Pavano's agent?
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Carl Pavano rivals Hideki Irabu in worst money spent on a pitcher in Yankee history.
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Taytay 24All-American
916 days ago
Score 0+-
I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see the Rangers go after Wood. Clearly they need pitching, they have a history of risky pitchers and Wood is a local. I'm sure Hicks would be happy to ridiculously outbid everyone else for a has-been.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 1+-
The phillies thank you for taking Millwood and Padilla...
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Taytay 24All-American
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Anytime.
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KelsdadAll-Star
916 days ago
Score 2+-
You get injured by NOT throwing. As Bob Feller once said, the only way to strengthen throwing muscles is by throwing. Another reason which hasn't been mentioned and in every conversation is overlooked is the the Players Association, and agents. If you have a relief pitcher who for whatever reason is making 10 million a season, the player or the agent whine when they don't pitch. This reason is arguably the number one reason why there are no complete games any more. When you look at it from the human aspect, Pedro Martinez and Bob Feller were roughly the same size, 6"0" 180, Feller had 484 career starts and 279 career complete games, which is 57.6%. Martinez has 375 starts and 46 complete games, or 12%. Since their size is the same, the physical differences are negated, so their stats should be equal. Except Pedro gets pulled early for Billy Wagner or Tim Wakefield or John Wetteland. Just so the union is happy.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 1+-
Well...you mean strengthen and then rest (just like lifting)...but players "throw" a lot, not just on the days they pitch...
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KelsdadAll-Star
916 days ago
Score 0+-
You forgot Ed Whitson, TB.
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KelsdadAll-Star
916 days ago
Score 1+-
When I played we threw all the time. Especially on the East Coast, you can't get loose with 20-25 throws. Played long toss with a weighted ball. My playing size was 5'9" 165 pounds and I could throw from center to home on the fly, easily. And most everyone on our team could too. And we didn't lift weights either.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 1+-
Our pitchers didn't throw all the time...they threw a lot though...

Obviously, you know, pitchers in high school, were generally the best ball players...so i'd say at least 1 of our position players, on any given day, was also a pitcher. But those of us who didn't pitch, we threw a lot...and the pitchers threw a lot, but they only pitched or had similar sessions about every other day, depending...

Of course, i had an average arm at best...
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KelsdadAll-Star
916 days ago
Score 0+-
You're arm wouldn't have been average if you threw more. And mechanics play alot in the process too. Just ask Kerry Wood and Eric Gagne. You have a good routine and good mechanics, you don't have Tommy John surgery.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 0+-
i did throw a lot...I was a position player...threw every day...and sometimes went home and threw some more...
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Niteowl049AAA-er
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Don't want to upset the player's union...how can a reliever get a multi million contract if he doesn't get into games? One case of when pitchers may have pitched too often was the 1964 Phillies who if I remember right used a three man rotation at end of season.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 0+-
always bring in 1964 eh?
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Niteowl049AAA-er
916 days ago
Score 1+-
Kelsdad, wish more players today could throw from centerfield to home on the fly. Almost sure Juan Pierre cannot do that.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 1+-
There's a lot of things Juan Pierre can't do...like get on base...
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
916 days ago
Score 0+-
I saw Juan Pierre play. He was lucky to hit the damn cutoff man without short hopping the ball.
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KelsdadAll-Star
916 days ago
Score 0+-
It all goes to the proper practice routine. The more you throw, the better you'll throw. If a pitcher only throws fastballs in his warmup sessions, how good will his curveball be in the game? If an outfielder plays catch from 25 feet before a game, how can he make a long throw during? Next time you go to a game, get there a couple hours early, and watch the players warm up.
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Niteowl049AAA-er
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Sorry about 1964 reference...was refering to it only because Mauch used 3 man rotation for some reason...Juan Pierre works out all the time but nothing is going to help him throw any further than he is now and he went to high school seven miles from here down in Louisina.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 0+-
wasn't the 4 man rotation common back then though?
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Niteowl049AAA-er
916 days ago
Score 0+-
would help if I could spell Louisiana right.
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Niteowl049AAA-er
916 days ago
Score 2+-
can't believe the Dodgers signed Pierre to almost $45 million contract. What were they thinking?
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Davis21wylieMVP
916 days ago
Score 0+-
I have no idea...
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
916 days ago
Score 0+-
This guy stunk in Chicago and was even booed at Wrigley. You gotta be pretty pathetic to be booed there.
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JuTMSY4Legend
916 days ago
Score 0+-
I can only imagine if philly had considered it...which...they did...
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KelsdadAll-Star
916 days ago
Score 0+-
I just finished writing the 1964 Philadelphia Phillies team page, the last two weeks of the season they did use a three man rotation, with Art Mahaffey and Dennis Bennett rotating on the third day. For the balance of the season though, they did use the normal four man rotation. The Phils did have some weird things happen the last two weeks, but nothing out of the norm, everything was magnified because of when it occured and what was at stake.
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Niteowl049AAA-er
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Davis 21... thanks for the link to the review of the Pierre signing. Very good point about him being a one dimensional player and likely to slow down before contract ends.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
916 days ago
Score 0+-
Which dimension does Juan Pierre excel at? Signing undeserving contracts?
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