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McGwire: Why Not or Why Not?

28
Vote


by user Harold Friend

LouGehrig

Stan Musial and Mark McGwire were both first basemen. Stan Musial and Mark McGwire were both great power hitters. Stan Musial and Mark McGwire each had seasons in which they led their league in RBIs. Stan Musial and Mark McGwire were both World Champions. But being in the Hall of Fame is not something Stan Musial and Mark McGwire should have in common.

Stan Musial played for 22 seasons while Mark McGwire played for parts of 16 seasons. Musial's lifetime batting average was .331. McGwire's was .263. Before one attempts to denigrate batting average, no matter how one slices it, in 600 official at bats, Musial would get 199 hits. McGwire would get 158 hits. How many teams wouldn't be helped by an additional 41 hits a season?

Okay, you like on base average. Musial walked 1599 times, averaging 86 walks a season. McGwire walked 1317 times, averaging 114 walks a season. At first glance, it might appear that Musial holds an edge over McGwire, since Musial has a .417 on base average while McGwire's is .394, but it must be remembered that on base average includes hits, so Musial's huge edge in hits per season overcomes McGwire's edge in walks. No one can deny that the ability to reach base was almost but not quite equal between them.

But it must be noted that an edge in hits is much more valuable than an edge in walks. Musial had 3630 hits that included 2253 singles, 725 doubles, 177 triples, and 475 home runs. That adds up to 1377 extra base hits. McGwire's totals pale in comparison.

McGwire had a lifetime total of 1626 hits. That's it. Musial had almost as many EXTRA BASE HITS in his career as McGwire had total hits. Mark had 785 singles, 252 doubles, 6---yes---6 career triples, and 583 home runs.

Musial had a much longer career so let's compare their 162 game season averages, thanks to Baseball-Reference:

MUSIAL:

Hits 194

Runs 104

Doubles 39

Triples 9

HR 25

RBI 104

BB 86

SO 37

BA .331

OBA .417

SA .559

McGWIRE:

Hits 141

Runs 101

Doubles 22

Triples 1

HR 50

RBI 122

BB 114

SO 138

BA .263

OBA .394

SA .588

Examine the numbers carefully and don't be seduced by McGwire's average of 50 home runs a season. McGwire hit 49 home runs in his rookie year of 1987, which was one of his best, and then he hit 42 in 1992, but he was hurt much of the following three seasons, although he did hit 39 in only 317 at bats in 1995. Beginning with 1996, McGwire's totals were 52, 58, 70, and 65. The only valid argument for McGwire making the Hall of Fame are those four seasons. McGwire is to hitters and Koufax is to pitchers.

For McGwire, it was often a case of all or nothing at all. He hit only 252 doubles and 6 triples in his career. Compare that to other Hall of Fame first baseman. Lou Gehrig hit 534 doubles and 163 triples, George Sisler hit 425 doubles and 164 triples, Jimmie Foxx hit 458 doubles and 125 triples, Johnny Mize hit 367 doubles and 83 triples, and Eddie Murray had 560 doubles and 35 triples.

It is not being claimed that because McGwire didn't hit many doubles or triples that he isn't a Hall of Famer. It is being claimed that he was a one dimensional player who had six great seasons, some decent seasons, and four horrible seasons, which makes him a questionable Hall of Famer at best. McGwire had seasons in which he batted .231, .235, .201, and in his last season, .187.

Today, the discussion is whether allegedly performing actions not condoned by our society should keep McGwire out of the Hall of Fame. That is not the issue. Based on his career, should McGwire be a Hall of Famer? Based on the modern criteria of hitting at least 500 career home runs and hitting more home runs in a single season than Roger Maris, McGwire is a Hall of Famer. Based on the criteria of being a great all around hitter and fielder and not being a one dimensional player, McGwire is not a Hall of Famer. Did anyone say Harmon Killebrew?

References:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/lists/index.htm



Date

Mon 07/31/06, 9:44 am EST


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1216 days ago
Score -1+-
While you make a valid argument, Mark McGwire used steroids when they were LEGAL. Although I am no longer a fan of sosa, mcgwire, etc., they didn't do anything illegal, and steroids weren't yet considered cheating. It is like a player who uses oil in his glove--right now its just another part of the game. if glove oil was not permitted in baseball, then all the past players who put oil in their gloves would be considered cheaters! although this is an extreme example, its the same idea. i say that mcgwire should be voted in, but any players who used steroids after they were banned should not be considered for the h.o.f.
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JoebookRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score -3+-
This says it all.
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XinophDraft Pick
1215 days ago
Score -2+-
OK, so if it's not illegal, it's OK? Great philosophy. I don't care if it was illegal, or against the rules, or not, it was unethical, and they knew that. Give me a break.
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XinophDraft Pick
1215 days ago
Score -2+-
I'm really glad that the person out there who negative-voted that comment above thinks that everything that is legal is ethical. That's a *great* standard for what's ethical, see how far that carries you in life.
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LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score 3+-
I agree with you completely with respect to the legal substances, but I simply think that based solely on his career, McGwire is questionable at best for the HOF. That is why I do not address any issue other than what he accomplished.
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HappyskinnyAll-American
1216 days ago
Score 1+-
I just dont understand why people are talking about big Mark as a first ballot Hall of Famer. Some voters are saying "I'll probably vote for him, but not on this first ballott" to teach him a lesson or something I guess, which is really stupid. I dont think his numbers suggest that he is a first ballott hall of famer anyway with or without the performance enhancing drugs. Not to mention Ripken and Gwynn are on the ballott next year with him. Good Luck.
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LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score 0+-
I think it has reached the point where statistics determine things. Five hundred home runs has become an automatic ticket, but no one can explain Fred McGriff and his 493 home runs. Would it really matter if he had seven more? The 70 home runs for McGwire is the big thing and the fact that Koufax is considered one of the greatest of all pitchers, based on only five seasons, makes McGwire's five seasons a strong argument for him to eventually get into the HOF.
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HappyskinnyAll-American
1216 days ago
Score 1+-
I understand your point there, however Koufax was dominant in everything for those five seasons. He was completely unhittable. McGwire, people were just worried about him hitting a bomb. I dont think you can compare them, but your basic premise is correct.
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JoebookRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score 1+-
McGriff is not a HOF player. He was a very good player for a long time, leading to his career totals. At no point was he a dominant or superstar player. McGwire was a superstar for probably eight different seasons. His dominance was a result of his HR, not the reason for it. Because he hit the hell out of a ball, he was walked a ton of times. That plays into the equation. The rest of Mac's career numbers aren't good enough for the Hall, but his HR and walks are. I say he gets in.
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LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score 1+-
Thank you. I agree with you that Koufax was dominant and McGwire, while having some great home run seasons, was one dimensional. I only brought in Koufax because he did have his five great seasons and McGwire really only had five or six seasons that, if they had become eleven or twelve, would have been a definite Hall of Fame choice.
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Jgov05All-American
1216 days ago
Score 1+-
Doesn't almost every player have about 5 or 6 great seasons? Your argument almost made the case for McGwire being in the HOF.
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LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score 1+-
Yes, you are right, but the difference is that McGwire's five seasons included two in which he hit 70 home runs in one and 65 in the other. Only Sammy Sosa, who is conspicuous by his not being mentioned, can top that. Despite his five seasons, McGwire does not belong.
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Charmcitykid15
1216 days ago
Score -1+-
if mcgwire gets in...rose should get in
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HappyskinnyAll-American
1216 days ago
Score -1+-
How do you figure that?
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JoebookRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score 2+-
This might be the dumbest argument I've seen...
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Charmcitykid15
1216 days ago
Score -6+-
if mcgwire gets in...rose should get in
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UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1216 days ago
Score 0+-
who gave me a minus? anyway, its the HALL OF FAME, not the HALL OF ACHEIVEMENTS. if you cant tell the story of baseball without mentioning that player's name, then he deserves to be in. mcgwire is one of those players.
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I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1216 days ago
Score 2+-
I've gotten several minuses for giving compliments on multiple occasions. You have to expect at least one for disagreeing :-) I gave you some pluses to make up for the minus-giving folk
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UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1216 days ago
Score -3+-
thanks :). Oh, G-d forbid I have an opinion, I have to worry about my comment score...
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HappyskinnyAll-American
1216 days ago
Score 1+-
How do you tell what the story of baseball is? Is Dave Roberts a hall of famer because he stole the base which helped the Red Sox beat the Yankees in game 4 of the ALCS? That is part of the story of baseball. From what your saying, everyone should pretty much be in the Hall.
Permalink
UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1216 days ago
Score 0+-
well, to be honest with you, i think the hall of fame is messed up. it is called the hall of fame, not hall of acheivements. dave roberts was a key element in the red sox victory over the yankees. if it was up to me, i would make another place called the hall of acheivements, where you earn your place based on performance, nothing more, nothing less. that way, we can have guys like dave roberts in the hall of FAME. the whole pete rose thing? never would have happened, were it up to me.
Permalink
UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1216 days ago
Score 0+-
maybe i shouldn't repeat the things i hear on espn radio 920...
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1215 days ago
Score -1+-
Articles from baseball events are in the hall of fame, ask Curt 'the Schill' where his 'bloody sock' got to... even Pete Rose has things other than a plaque in the Hall. He is not ignored/justt not recognized.
Permalink
UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1216 days ago
Score -1+-
im not saying i like the guy, but everyone keeps telling me that power is the biggest part of hitting. if you're a power hitter ,you're a great hitter. mark mcgwire was one of the biggest power hitters ever. he deserves to be in the h.o.f. based on his stats. pick a side, people. you cant keep telling me that power rules above all else and then tell me big mac doesnt deserve to be in. its contradictory
Permalink | Reply
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score 2+-
Being a great power hitter and being a great hitter are not the same. See Rob Deer or Bill Nicholson and then Tony Gwynn or Richie Ashburn or even Cecil Travis.

Deer and Nicholson were great power hitters (how about Burrell?) but not great hitters. Gywnn, Ashburn, and Travis had little home run power, but they were great hitters.

Jeter's season this year is one in which he having a great season, knocking in runs (65), but has hit only 7 HRs.
Permalink
JoebookRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score -1+-
This might be the dumbest argument I've seen...
Permalink | Reply
UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1216 days ago
Score -1+-
what i said? or about mark mcgwire
Permalink
JoebookRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score 2+-
referring to the pete rose thing... the Mac in the HOF argument is valid. Somehow my post got listed twice.
Permalink | Reply
UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1216 days ago
Score 0+-
yes, im tired of arguing the validity of the hall of fame, and how pete rose is a good hitter.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1216 days ago
Score 2+-
National Base Ball Hall of Fame, Not MLB Hall of Fame... BTW steroids are ILLEGAL without a prescription, something McGwire would never have rec'd. While baseball didn't ban steroids specifically, most contracts have language about engaing in illegal acts. Wouldn't using illegal steroids count as that?
Permalink | Reply
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1216 days ago
Score 1+-
If McGwire used substances, it is thought that anything he used was not against baseball's rules at the time.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1215 days ago
Score 1+-
rules are only broken when people get caught
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1215 days ago
Score 1+-
illegal drugs (by the DEA's jurisdiction, not baseball) would seem to be against baseball's rules whether it could be tested or inforced. Illegal = NOT legal
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
1216 days ago
Score 0+-
McGwire is better than any other eligible first baseman not in the Hall. Also, he is better than the average HoF 1Bman.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1215 days ago
Score 1+-
about '5-12 years of HGH, steroids and Andro' better than the average HoF 1B
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EnyboDiv-I Stud
1215 days ago
Score 0+-
He's in because of two peices. 1) It hasn't been proven yet that he took steroids, and probably won't be and 2) he has a crap load of HR's. 584 total and averaged 50 a season, thats pretty amazing.
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TartanVarsity Captain
1215 days ago
Score 0+-
Look at the strike out and average numbers compared. McGwire was not a good hitter, and without all the walks he got, his on-base would be paltry as well. Does he belong in Hall of Fame? Maybe. However, breaking the law in the United States consistantly over (assumedly) 5-10 years should violate the character clause of the Hall of Fame. It all depends on how many voters believe this is enough for him not to warrant admission. Especially when seen on the ballot against such guys as Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn, McGwire seems like a cheat and a no-vote.
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JoebookRed-Shirting
1215 days ago
Score 1+-
Tartan -- he's not going against Ripken and Gwynn... he's on the ballot with them. As was said earlier, he hasn't been arrested yet for anything...
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TartanVarsity Captain
1215 days ago
Score 0+-
No, I know he's not going against them, but his digressions appear all the more appalling when he's on a list next to Gwynn and Ripken. Poor wording above on my part
Permalink
Twins15Varsity Captain
1215 days ago
Score 1+-
Did I miss something? Why is the article writer trying to say McGwire is not a HOF because he doesn't compare favorably to one of the best players ever? So he's not as good as Stan Musial... that doesn't say anything as to whether he should be in the HOF or not.
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LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1215 days ago
Score 0+-
The writer does not claim that McGwire isn't a Hall of Famer because he wasn't as good as Musial. The writer used Musial as an example of a clear cut Hall of Famer. McGwire is questionable at best, and so his career was being questioned.
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JCantRootWaterboy
1215 days ago
Score 1+-
I agree with Twins15. Of course McGwire is not as good a player as Stan Musial, but Big Mac has 10 All-Star seasons, a Rookie of the Year Award, 4 Adjusted OPS+ titles, the 12th highest career OPS, is first all-time AB-per-HR-ratio and even has a gold glove thrown in there. I wasn't certain where I stood on this issue before this post, but that's a pretty good resume. And, since Stan Musial is listed as an OF inductee by the HOF website

http://www.b...s&LF.htm why don't we compare McGwire to other non-immortal first basemen in the Hall like Tony Perez, George Kelly, Frank Chance (just because your name is in a sing-songy double play combo, it does not make you awesome), Jim Bottomley (if you want to continue the St. Louis theme) or a contemporary like Eddie Murray.

http://www.b...s&1B.htm
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LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1215 days ago
Score 0+-
Excellent points, and the others are all questionable. It really is a situation in which the criteria for election, which are NOT too specific, must be clearly defined. A Volkwagen and a Roll Royce are both cars, yet there is a difference between them. Rabbit Maranville and Rogers Hornsby are Hall of Famers, and there is a difference between them.
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SteaksammichRed-Shirting
1215 days ago
Score 1+-
I don't think that anyone will argue that McGwire is better than Musial. But not being as good as one of the greatest players of all time doesn't mean that McGwire isn't great himself. Sure, he was a one trick pony. But he was damned good at that trick. A .394 OBP and his homers are more than enough to make him a Hall of Famer.
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AndersedJV Squad
1215 days ago
Score 0+-
Just because McGwire was more likable than Barry Bonds doesn't make him less guilty. I agree with the article 100%.
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SteaksammichRed-Shirting
1214 days ago
Score 0+-
And just like McGwire, Bonds is a no-brainer for the Hall of Fame
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