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Jorge Posada in the Hall of Fame

17
Vote

by Ibearg

Posted from Future GM Thoughts wrote this July 5th on my blog, but due to the hall of fame debate yesterday on Armchair thought i'd repost it. Stats/rankings shouldn't have altered too much since then...

Summer is traditionally slow for sports, with only baseball and soccer being played and half the country not interested in soccer. As evidence of this paucity of sports stories ESPN devoted a rather long segment to the hot dog eating competition. Luckily there was a Yankee game on today. Watching the game today, one of the announcers mentioned that Reggie Jackson said Jorge Posada is a borderline Hall of Famer. When I think about it, I believe this is the case, but I know most non-Yankee fans will say that’s ridiculous. So the easiest way to prove something like that is clearly statistics.

To me if you are to be considered a Hall of Famer you need to be one of the top 2-3 players at your position for your era. So I looked for catchers who have made the all-star team at one point or another during Posada’s career. As of now there are 14 catchers who have made the all-star team at least once in that time and have over 500 career games (which excludes Mauer and McCann). These catchers are Posada, Sandy Alomar Jr., I-Rod, Ramon Hernandez, Todd Hundley, Charles Johnson, Jason Kendall, Javy Lopez, Victor Martinez, Damien Miller, Mike Piazza, A.J. Pierzynski, Benito Santiago, and Jason Varitek.

Among these catchers Posada ranks 2 nd in OBP, 4th in slugging and 2nd in OPS. In each of these categories he ranks ahead of the new hot shot hitting catcher Victor Martinez. Posada ranks 5th overall in home runs, but will pass Santiago with 10 more home runs and Lopez with 53. Assuming he has his average season of around 20 homers a year over the next 3 years he will certainly pass him. He ranks 5 th in RBI’s and will pass Lopez with 48 more RBI’s and Santiago with 98. There’s no reason to believe Posada doesn’t have at least 3 good years left in him as he’s having, so far, one of his best seasons offensively. The two catchers that rank ahead of Posada in many categories in this era are Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez. Both of those are sure fire Hall of Fame candidates; despite the fact Piazza was one of the worst defensive catchers to play the game. If Posada finishes his career with over 250 HR’s, over 1000 RBI’s and the second highest OPS of any catcher in his generation I’d say that’s hall of fame worthy. He also will also have been been the plate handling the pitching staff for a minimum of 4 World Series winners, compared to 0 by the other hall of fame catchers of his era.


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JoshkrossDraft Pick
863 days ago
Score 1+-
Can you post a larger picture. I can quite make out how perpendicular to his head his ears are.
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IbeargRed-Shirting
863 days ago
Score 2+-
lol next time I'll try
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
863 days ago
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Anon #1 - relax with the GYPIAB (Got your panties in a bunch) It's way MORE annoying to ask people if they are really laughing out loud than when people use "LOL"... post something of value or power down and get some fresh air...
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
863 days ago
Score 2+-
well, now I don't make any sense!
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Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
863 days ago
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He's been in the top half dozen catchers for the last decade. He's perhaps marginal at the moment like you say, and needs to have a few more batting stats under his belt before he gets in. I think you give an accurate summary of the dilemma.
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RomiezzoLegend
863 days ago
Score 2+-
Jorge Posada is questionable in my mind. Come to think of it, with the season he's having, if he keeps doing well for the next 3-4 years, he might become a hall of famer. Let's compare stats to 3 catchers who are in the Hall of Fame (randomly the first 4 that came to my mind, and probably in everyone else's):

Johnny Bench: 17 seasons, 389 HRs, 1376 RBIs, .267 AVG, .342 OBP, .476 SLG, 2048 hits, 1091 runs scored, 68 SBs

Gary Carter: 19 seasons, 324 HRs, 1225 RBIs, .262 AVG, .335 OBP, .439 SLG, 2092 hits, 1025 runs scored, 39 SBs

Carlton Fisk: 24 seasons, 376 HRs, 1330 RBIs, .269 AVG, .341 OBP, .457 SLG, 2356 hits, 1276 runs scored, 128 SBs

Yogi Berra: 19 seasons, 358 HRs, 1430 RBIs, .285 AVG, .348 OBP, .482 SLG, 2150 hits, 1175 runs scored, 30 SBs

Jorge Posada: 13 seasons, 208 HRs, 822 RBIs, .274 AVG, .378 OBP, .475 SLG, 1266 hits, 701 runs scored, 16 SBs
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RomiezzoLegend
863 days ago
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If Jorge Posada plays about 20 seasons, he'll have 300+ homers, more RBIs than Gary Carter IMO, and has the potential to have a higher OBP, AVG, and SLG than Bench, Carter, AND Fisk; it all depends on how well he does in the future. We'll see if he can put up the same numbers he will this season. If he does, he's (for sure) a hall of famer (might not be a first balloter), but he'll be in there.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
863 days ago
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Thurman Munson gets in before Posada... and Munson ain't getting in!
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IbeargRed-Shirting
863 days ago
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munson would have been a hall of famer had he not died, unfortunately he did. Posada will more than double him in homers, and has a way better career ops.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
863 days ago
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He has had some good years, but his career is not HOF material at this point. Unless he is like Barry Bonds and magically gets better at 37, he is a longshot.

Ignoring the above comparisons, look at the cold hard stats:

1 year 100+ RBI (2003,101), 1 year 30+HR (2003,30), 1 year .300+BA (.331 this year, so that could change if he slumps). He was 3rd in MVP voting once.
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IbeargRed-Shirting
863 days ago
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catchers can't be held to the same standards offensively as other hitters. Even the great catchers of all time didn't hit higher than .285 or get 3000 hits. the wear and tear of the position takes it's toll, for that reason you have to compare catchers to their contemporaries and past greats at the position. Posada with a few more years should compare very favorably too all of them.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
863 days ago
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so you're saying that Posada is a good catcher and game caller? Ha!
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
863 days ago
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No, the point is that catcher is a much tougher and more demanding position to play than anywhere else on the field, and few people can do it well, so the offensive numbers put up by catchers overall will not be as good as the offensive numbers put up by other position players.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
863 days ago
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Also keep in mind, 300HR's not what it used to be. 300HR's for Fisk, Carter back in the 'deadball era' of 1970's,80's, more significant than 300 HR today. Soon there will be 6 or 7 active players with 500+
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ChristofMVP
863 days ago
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I don't think Jorge makes it into the HOF, unless he buys a ticket and visits the place.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
863 days ago
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If he does get voted in on what he had done to this point, it will be because he was a Yankee and a good catcher, not because he was a great catcher Keep in mind at age 35, to "project" his next few years is foolhardy. This is when players tend to decline, not improve, especially catchers!
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Niteowl049AAA-er
863 days ago
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I can see Bonds and Posada waiting in line to buy tickets since that is only way they will get in Hall of Fame. However, Posada belongs in there before Bonds.
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
863 days ago
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Baseball Prospectus wrote about this about a month ago...their conclusion was that he can probably make a good case for himself with a couple more decent years. I probably agree... http://www.b...tered/?p=412
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KelsdadAll-Star
863 days ago
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I'm a Yankee fan, and I honestly can't stop laughing. Who's next, Rick Cerone? Geezus.
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RomiezzoLegend
863 days ago
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Miguel Cairo...
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IbeargRed-Shirting
862 days ago
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i knew people would initially laugh and said as much in the article, so finish laughing and then tell me how I'm wrong. is he not one of the top 3 catchers of his era?
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
862 days ago
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Kinda depends on how you define "era"...Pudge and Piazza are better, and among the younger players, Mauer, McCann, and V-Mart (if he stays at catcher) all have a shot, though they've obviously got a long ways to go. But I agree with you, Posada probably should end up in the Hall, though I'd like to see him put together a couple more solid seasons first...
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Niteowl049AAA-er
863 days ago
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Jake Gibbs has hit 25 homers which is 11 more than a Hall of Fame catcher. I won't mention the name of the catcher since one of his relatives blasted me in an email for saying that he didn't belong in the Hall of Fame in my blog about two years ago.
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RomiezzoLegend
862 days ago
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RAY SCHALK!! Sorry if you didn't want me to put him in, but I just had to. And you're right, he doesn't belong in the HOF...
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RomiezzoLegend
862 days ago
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Ray Schalk holds the MLB record for the most years leading catcher in fielding (8), most putouts (9), most assists in a career, and caught 4 no hitters, with one of them being a perfect game...
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RomiezzoLegend
862 days ago
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So, at least he's in there for SOMETHING
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Niteowl049AAA-er
863 days ago
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Don't forget the immortal Matt Nokes.
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Niteowl049AAA-er
862 days ago
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Made a mistake....Gibbs has 14 more home runs than the Hall of Fame catcher. That catcher has 11 home runs in his career.
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
862 days ago
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Ray Schalk. To be fair, he played half his career in the dead ball era. But more importantly, his career slugging percentage was .316(!), and he had an OPS+ above 100 exactly once. He was elected by the Veterans committee (who made a number of very questionable selections around that time) mostly because of his defense, but I can't see how his defense would have made up for that anemic bat...
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Niteowl049AAA-er
862 days ago
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Agree that Schalk's defense could never make up for such anemic hitting. It would be like Damian Miller going in the Hall of Fame.
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
862 days ago
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Factual inaccuracy:

He also will also have been been the plate handling the pitching staff for a minimum of 4 World Series winners, compared to 0 by the other hall of fame catchers of his era.

Pudge won the 2003 World Series when he was with the Marlins.
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Niteowl049AAA-er
862 days ago
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If I remember right Schalk was the first catcher to go down to first to cover a bad throw...but even that is not enough for Hall of Fame admittance. He may have played in dead ball era mostly but still should have had more than 11 home runs. Some players today hit that many in a month.
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RomiezzoLegend
862 days ago
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Although that's true, you should remember that firstly, not all guys are known for hitting power, and not all people are known for their offense. Look at Ozzie Smith. He didn't do that good at the plate at all: .262 batting average, .337 OBP, .328 SLG. Remember, he was elected in the class of 1955, and people get better and better. It was much harder to hit a home run back then than right now.
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
862 days ago
Score 1+-
Ozzie Smith is, far and away, the greatest defensive shortstop of all-time, according to both subjective and statistical measures. I have no idea if the same can be said for Schalk or not, but my guess would be that it cannot. As for the "first catcher to back up first" thing...I read that in a couple places, but I also read that it may be a myth, so there's no real way to know for sure.
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JuTMSY4Legend
862 days ago
Score 1+-
It's the freakin wizard of Oz!!
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RomiezzoLegend
862 days ago
Score 1+-
Yes, I know it's the one and only Wizard of Oz, but I'm saying that they might have thought that Schalk had the defense of Pudge Rodriguez. It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Best Offense, and IMO, it all depends on how good the player is altogether. Look at Omar Vizquel. I think he deserves to be in the hall of fame, without his 2500+ hits..
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JuTMSY4Legend
862 days ago
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dude, and he used a tom cruise movie in his sentence...and didn't even reference it!
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Niteowl049AAA-er
862 days ago
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This is one of the great debates that will go on forever. The Hall of Fame is full of defensive specialists who were not known for their hitting. Next year voters will have to decide if Delino Deshields, Randy Velarde and Chuck Knoblauch are worthy of induction.
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
861 days ago
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I don't know if you intended to do this...but do you realize you just used "defensive specialists" in one sentence and then Chuck Knoblauch in the next?
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Yakob878MVP
861 days ago
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I agree 4-5 years give or take a year and he wil have similar numbers to bech and fisk and certainly should go into the hall of fame
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