Jeter bashing and the Trinity

by user JCantRoot

Yes I do think Derek Jeter is overrated, but it is not by as much as the Derek bashers would lead you to believe.

Let's see why.

Notes

• The following statistics reflect the players' careers through 2005 and do not include the 2006 season.

• The offensive statistics are taken from a player's 162 game AVG on baseball-reference.com and reflect the player's entire career at every position.

• The field% stats reflects only the player's career numbers at SS

Opinions

• A-Rod's overall numbers clearly dwarf anyone on the list and I believe there is no discussion as to who was the best SS among this class. Although I don't think any of you needed this table to draw that conclusion.

• While I do believe that Nomar at his peak was better than Derek Jeter, Nomar's numbers here must be taken with a grain of salt because they are based largely on speculation. In 1996, 2001, 2004 and 2005 Nomar played a total of 188 games because of injury. As a result these were also his weakest seasons, and do not reflect as strongly on his averages as his monstruous seasons in 1998-00 and 2002-03.

• Reyes' numbers are based on a very small sampling and it would not be surprising to see his standing within this group grow largely over the next few seasons.

Conclusions

R - in runs Jeter trails only A-Rod

H - in hits he is second to Garciaparra

2B, HR, RBI - his raw power numbers are middle to bottom of the pack which does hurt my claim

SB/CS - in the speed department Jeter trails only noted base stealers Reyes and Renteria in total SBs, although his percentage of .7931 matches A-Rod and trails only Reyes (.8281)

BA/OBP/SLG - Jeter's BA trails only Garciaparra but his OBP is the highest on the list. His SLG% is beatenly handily by A-Rod and Nomar, but his only 16 points lower than Tejada.

TB - Jeter's large hit total helps to balance his low slugging as he trails only A-Rod and Nomar in total bases.

Runs produced - once again Jeter trails only Nomar and A-Rod. He edges out Tejada in this department but soundly beats the rest of the pack.

Fielding % - Young and Vizquel are the class of this category. Jeter trails A-Rod by .002 percentage points and Ripken by .004, which isn't that bad.

• I think these numbers make a very strong case for Jeter as an offensive player. I know you're going to tell me he plays on the Yankees with a bunch of superstars around him in the lineup, but wait just a minute:

• The Rangers have had a ton of good bats around Young in the lineup (I-Rod, Palmeiro, A-Rod, Texiera, Blalock, Soriano)

• Nomar played with a healthy Mo Vaughn, Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz for 8 years hitting 300 foot fly balls off the Green Monster (thus the large # of 2Bs).

• Tejada hit between juice-heads Giambi and Chavez in Oakland before moving to a ban box in Baltimore.

What I think

Jeter may never win an MVP. He'll never win a triple crown. This year may be his best shot at a batting title and he probably won't get anymore gold gloves because the fielding will start going downhill. But it's likely he'll win another World Series, finish a career with 3,000 hits, 2,000 runs, 1,500 RBI ...

Derek Jeter may not be as good as people say, but he's better than people think.

Date

Tue 09/05/06, 5:54 am EST

Manny StilesMajor Leaguer

1182 days ago

Score 0

and if he played for the Royals or Pirates all his career instead of the Yankees, there would not be a discussion about this. Or even mention him at all... He's merely good. That's all.

Jeter sucks and his apologists blow.

Your statement about A-Rod dwarfing all others, furthers my argument that Jeter should be playing Second base (since he doesn't have the reaction ability or arm to play Third)

The guys you mention 'protecting 'these other guys- some barely played with them very long if at all (Young - IRod/Palmiero?, Nomar-Vaughn/Ortiz?)

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DNLLegend

1182 days ago

Score 2

Nah, that's just not true. Ichiro wins an MVP while putting up similar numbers, with more stolen bases and less power, but from a less-important defensive position. He plays in Seattle. Julio Lugo was a sought-after trade trinket all year, but he's not anywhere near Jeter with a bat. Lugo was in Tampa Bay.

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Bleeding GreenVarsity

1182 days ago

Score 0

Jeter actually should be playing CF...

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TartanVarsity Captain

1182 days ago

Score 2

Without playing in New York, nearly all of Jeter's numbers decline, some drastically. RBIs, way down. Runs, way down. Hits and AVG decline as well, because of no protection in the lineup. The only one that would stay the same is Stealing %. With less on-base opportunities, he would obviously have less steals.

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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer

1182 days ago

Score 1

Ichiro is a machine and one of the best hitters EVER on the planet - see: most hits, season - 262; could hit for power if he wanted to... and has an absolute CANNON of an arm and MUCH netter speed and baserunning ability than Jeter.

I'm growing weary of the whole 'more/less important' defensive position argument... they're ALL important when you're a GREAT fielder like Suzuki.

I didn't say Jeter is bad, I said he isn't GREAT.

Similar numbers? Jeter = Ichiro minus 30 hits, 20 SBs and PLUS 60 Ks and only about 20 more BBs (Yet Ichiro supposedly never walks and Jeter has a 'great eye') per 162. Jeter hits into 3x as many DPs while Ichiro never misses a game...

Oh yeah, Ichiro has 60 some more career intentional walks than Jeter in 6 less years... That doesn't take into account what kind of pitches they face - me thinks Jeter sees WAY more strikes. WHO thinks they're similar?? Not pitchers/managers

Jeter, Jeter, Peter Eater...

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JCantRootWaterboy

1182 days ago

Score 1

Young played with I-Rod and Palmeiro in his first full season (2002) and with Palmeiro again in 2003. Texas' offense scored 843 runs in '02 and 826 in '03. Yanks scored 897 and 877 in those seasons. Nomar played with a good Mo Vaughan for 2 seasons (97-98) and only 1 year with Ortiz (03), so you're right Manny, the Ortiz reference is a little thin

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TartanVarsity Captain

1182 days ago

Score 3

And why are Barry Larkin's stats never included in this discussion?

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Bball3345Draft Pick

1182 days ago

Score 2

fair point

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JCantRootWaterboy

1182 days ago

Score 2

good points. Barry Larkin is a good suggestion too, MVP, he didn't even pop into my head. Ozzie Smith - I know he became a better hit midway through his career, but I didn't think would come close offensively so I didn't include him - I only went with Zizquel because he was mentioned in the trinity article. I'll put Larkin in when I get the chance. Any other suggestions? I'll be hapy to add.

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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer

1181 days ago

Score 1

Arky Vaughn.

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TartanVarsity Captain

1181 days ago

Score 0

I added Barry Larkin for my own personal happiness, and for comparison reasons. He compares favorably to some, and definitely belongs in this discussion. Also, I couldn't find Runs Produced, runs created would fit, but it didn't mesh with the other statistics.

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JCantRootWaterboy

1181 days ago

Score 0

thanks Tartan. I added runs poduced in there. I used the classic Runs+RBI - HR formula. Larkin definitely compares favorably, I feel bad for leaving him out.

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Twins15Varsity Captain

1181 days ago

Score 0

I think Jeter is vastly overrated by the media who proclaim him as some type of superhero, but the fact is that he is a HOF SS without a doubt. He was not and is not a good defensive SS, but he's excellent at the plate. Great eye, good average, and solid power for a SS. Runs and RBI are overrated and frankly worthless stats, but Jeter is great at the plate because he's good at not making outs. Which is the name of the game.

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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer

1181 days ago

Score 0

"great eye"? Look at those K numbers sometime... You fell for that? Then you're a lemming to the media too.

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Twins15Varsity Captain

1180 days ago

Score 0

Look at the BB and OBP numbers.

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Twins15Varsity Captain

1181 days ago

Score 0

Oh yeah, and if you're looking to add anyone in, Honus Wagner is far and away the best SS of all-time.

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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer

1181 days ago

Score 0

cough, cough, A-Rod, cough cough...

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Twins15Varsity Captain

1180 days ago

Score 0

I have a hard time ranking him above (or near, at this point) Honus Wagner considering he doesn't even play the position anymore (although yes, he should be).

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