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Is clemens still a Hall of Famer?

18
Vote

by Mike Ketchen

From www.thebaseballfix.blogspot.com

Is Clemens still a Hall of Famer?

I heard this question posed immediately after the Mitchell report was released , containing what would be pretty damning evidence in regard to Clemens supposed performance enhancing drugs. It is a topic that is sure to gain a lot of steam from here on out, all the way up into his first year of eligibility for Cooperstown.

Honestly, not only should Clemens (along with Bonds) still be elected. He should be elected unanimously. I have spent the last few days thinking about this. Contemplating how fair it is to the players who have never been publicly accused (Griffey, Ripken) but at the same time wondering about the rest of the unknowns who have been using.

After digesting all this info I think you can not simply band all of these players from the HOF. Not even the one’s we known have more information on. The reason behind this being, we will never know as a fan base, as baseball writers just how ramped drug use was. Think about this, what if 75% of Baseball was using performance enhancing drugs and Bonds and Clemens were just that much better. In the same scenario what if only 10% of Baseball was on steroids?

Simply put I just do not think we can pretend the last 15-20yrs never happened. Rather, I think all players should be voted on given what they did in this generation. This will always be remembered as the “steroid era” so these players were simply the best of there respective era. This is not the first controversial era in Baseball and it will not be the last. It is simply put in with other arguments. It is the same reason you can not simply look at numbers when comparing generations. You simply have to evaluate based on era. Perfect example is Jim Rice. When you look at Rice numbers he doesn’t immediately impress. However when you go back an evaluate his 10yr stretch. You realize he was the most dominant and feared hitter of his era for good reason.

I hope all who read this take a second and process where I’m coming from. This is not simply an impulse post. I did not shoot from the hip as so many of the “supposed experts” have done over the past few days. This was a tough piece to write as I am probably one of the biggest Ken Griffey Jr fans of all time. I do truly believe however, that until we have absolutely evidence of the exact number of users in Baseball we can not just dismiss those who excelled in the “steroid era”.


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CityhockeyfeverVarsity Captain
719 days ago
Score 0+-
Until I hear confirmation Roger Clemens indeed took steroids, I won't make my decision on whether or not he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. If he did use them, he shouldn't belong there. The long time passes without him making a statement like Andy Pettitte did today, the more doubt he'll cast about whether or not he's guilty.
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Falcon02520Legend
719 days ago
Score 1+-
I am not sure if he was using him in Boston... he was deffinatly on pace to be in the Hall... now though, I don't think he belongs in just as Bonds...
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JuTMSY4Legend
719 days ago
Score 1+-
well...i believe all indications point to 1998... with that said, yes, he and bonds share the same disposition...
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Falcon02520Legend
719 days ago
Score 1+-
exactly... just because Bonds is an asshole doesn't mean that he shouldn't be in the Hall and Roger should be... they both deserve the same fate...
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JuTMSY4Legend
719 days ago
Score 2+-
and clemens isn't an asshole? ; - )
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Falcon02520Legend
719 days ago
Score 1+-
true... true...
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SportsGerbilJV Squad
719 days ago
Score 1+-
No, cause I now firmly believe Roger took roids considering his bud Pettitte admitted to it today. Things could change in 5 years, but I'm not one who feels he should be in because he was a hall of famer before he juiced up. His cheating the game greatly outweighs what he did before roids. Pete Rose had an ENTIRE legit hall of fame career, but isnt in because of what he did. Clemens played half a legit career (so we think) and shouldnt be in because of what he did. If he really didn't do this, he should bring on a lawsuit against the Mitchell Report and McNamee for slander.
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The PipDiv-I Stud
719 days ago
Score 0+-
So, instead of punishing someone that used steroids (and after Andy's confession we can say with 75% accuracy that Roger used) let's due what Bud did and turn a blind eye to it. Let's reward it, let's celebrate it! No, when you aare on the highway and you get pulled over for speeding, what happens when you ask the cop about the 10 guys that past you 2 miles ago? He laughs at you and writes a ticket because you did something wrong and got caught> Is it fair? No, but life isn't fair. Is it fair to the 20 guys Clemens struck out while using steroids? (<--- referring to the 2nd time he did it) This is a case of the 11th commandment "Thou shall not get caught."

He was a childhood idle of mine and before the Mitchell report I made a good argument for calling him the best ever, after all he did what he did in the "steroid era". Turns out he was on steroids as well and I'd rather see Pete Rose and Jose Canseco in the hall before Clemens, or Bonds, or Sosa, or McGwire. Because Jose, unlike the rest of those jerks at least admitted he took stuff. Also he was the first baseball player to come clean so he should be the first steroid user admitted to the hall, if we are going to admit them.

Roger knew what he was doing and now he's paying the price, tough sh*t if he has a problem with it. Like Bonds he was a lock for the HOF before he took anything! So screw him for being an arrogant prick. He could have pitched without the steroids and we would not be having this conversation.
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Ron Sen, MDRed-Shirting
718 days ago
Score 0+-
First a little perspective from a physician. I have never prescribed HGH to anyone, although a body of literature exists supporting its very selected use.

Background http://news....es/98757.stm

Isolated growth hormone deficiency in adults not a recognized entity http://www.n...med_RVDocSum

Testing is becoming available, but it's not simple http://www.n...med_RVDocSum

Conversely, I have prescribed oral anabolic steroids to adults (off label), severely debilitated, hospitalize, post-operative patients (elderly women) with profound weakness (after careful discussion with patients and family) and found incredible short-term (weeks) results.

If you can give the sickest elderly women with muscle weakness small doses and see amazing results, what can you get with superpharmacologic doses in trained athletes? I think the answer speaks for itself.

Users should be treated uniformly.
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JuTMSY4Legend
718 days ago
Score 0+-
but ron, can't physicians prescribe marijuana to people (not all states)...

i think we can all agree, it probives a significant advantage in the recovery process (rebuild of muscles after workout as well as rehabilitation after injury)...

seems a little unfair...
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Ron Sen, MDRed-Shirting
718 days ago
Score 0+-
Oversight from state licensing boards and the DEA helps regulate prescribing practices.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
718 days ago
Score 1+-
The players and their union have fought any attempt to investigate alleged steroid usage at an internal (MLB - Mitchell Report) and federal levels. Bonds is already indicted on perjury charges. Palmeiro lied to Congress, tested positive afterwards and apparently dodged similar charges due to technicalities. And now we have Clemens vehemently denying usage of PEDs despite Andy Pettitte now collaborating with findings in the Mitchell Report and at least admitting to HGH usage on at least 2 occasions.

These so called "Future HOF" baseball players involved in this controversy have NO RIGHT to assume any automatic entry into Cooperstown. It is a privilege and not a right to be a member of the HOF. And it tires me to no end that uber-supporters of these steroid era players warrant entries into the HOF regardless that they have cheated and lied about it, because of previous players voted in despite their sins. When voting for players, there is a moral consideration clearly indicated on the ballot. It is time for the voters to actually start voting according to the rules set forth.

As for these players on the HOF bubble, they could care a less about their fans and the importance of "HOF status" anyways. The HOF to these players who cheated only represents a pinnacle to their egocentric existences, more dough to be earned at baseball card/memorabilia shows along with a feeling of invincibility that they are above the rules.

And it must end. To hell with Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, Pettitte and everyone else that cheated to put their selfish needs above the game of baseball.

'Nuff said.
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SkipidsJV Squad
718 days ago
Score 0+-
did sosa ever get caught?
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
718 days ago
Score 0+-
He conveniently forgot how to speak English before this nation's government to evade answering direct questions concerning PED usage. The very same country that provided him and his family a millionaire lifestyle. Fack Sosa.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
718 days ago
Score 1+-
What do you mean, did Sosa ever get caught? What the fuck is wrong with you. Do your eyes work?

When you go from a 180 pound borderline ML player who can't get around on good ML cheese to a 230 muscle bound mass whose jam shots go from pops to short left to homers, isn't that proof enough.

Go look at Bonds' and Sosa's and Sheffield's and Giambi's rookie cards then look at them today and then tell me they weren't users.

Yeah, they got caught, every time they step on the field, 50,000 pairs of eyes caught them.
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Mike KetchenJV Squad
718 days ago
Score 1+-
Guys great stuff! my main point however, was similar in a sense to that of Buster Onley. How do we as a public determine and vote accordingly? If you think Bonds and Clemens are no go's because that got caught fine. But what if 85% of players were on? I think we truly have to just evaluate on this generation as a whole untill more info comes out. But great stuff either way.
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
718 days ago
Score 0+-
Totally agree.
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The BeastAAA-er
718 days ago
Score 0+-
Probably ya but not first ballot.
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FrugolfVarsity Captain
717 days ago
Score 1+-
Several posters here have indicated that Petitte admitted to steroids.That's not what I'm reading.HGH is what he admitted to which in 2002 wasn't banned by baseball.It doesn't make it right,but we shouldn't confuse the two.In answer to the question, Clemens should not be admitted if it is proven that he took STEROIDS or HGH in order to cheat.I do believe Andy Petitte took HGH in order to get back on the field.If he was trying to get an edge he would have continued taking them.
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