armchairgm
all sports, all you
+ Add Friends
You are not logged-in.
Sign Up - Log In
Main Page
Sports
Write
Articles
Hot Links
Images
Meet People
Fun
Explore
MLB - NFL - NBA - NHL - College Basketball - College Football - Soccer - Nascar - Other
Article - Locker Room Discussion
All Articles - New Articles - Today's Articles
Submit a Link - Approve Links
Picture Game - Ratings - Polls - Pick Game - Quiz Game - Spring Silliness
Random Page - Random Image - Random Fan
Edit
Page history Discuss pageWhat links here

Is Billy Wagner the second most dominant closer ever?

15
Vote


You guys know me by now, and I'm a numbers guy. Mariano Rivera, regardless of numbers, is the best closer in history. He keeps getting better, and he'd be my #1 guy in my all-time bullpen.

As I was going through my previous article on closers, I realized that nobody has better raw numbers than Billy Wagner. Take total saves out of the equation, because I know he isn't even in the top-20 yet, but let's examine his other digits against the greats.

Wagner -- 2.40 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, 11.93 K/9, 3.81-1 K/BB

Trevor Hoffman -- 2.73 ERA, 1.05 WHIP, 9.87 K/9, 3.85-1 K/BB

Lee Smith -- 3.03 ERA, 1.26 WHIP, 8.73 K/9, 2.57-1 K/BB

Dennis Eckersley (as a closer) -- 2.97 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, 8.83 K/9, 6.79-1 K/BB

Goose Gossage (as a closer) -- 2.33 ERA, 1.12 WHIP, 8.44 K/9, 2.60-1 K/BB

Rollie Fingers (as a closer) -- 2.90 ERA, 1.16 WHIP, 6.87 K/9, 2.64-1 K/BB

Mariano Rivera -- 2.28 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, 7.70 K/9, 3.67-1 K/BB

I know there are other greats to compare with, but these are some of the best closers of all-time, and Wags looks like he has better numbers than all of them. I'm not saying that these four categories are the only stats needed to determine this, but Wagner's domination has been going on for almost 10 years now. I'm saying he's the #2 most dominating closer in history.


Date

Wed 07/26/06, 12:11 pm EST


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
Bleeding GreenVarsity
1223 days ago
Score 0+-
If he didn't choke in every big situation, you may have a point. He isn't close to the 2nd most dominant closer ever.
Permalink | Reply
ASwaffAll-American
1223 days ago
Score 3+-
Green has a bit of a point, although I wouldn't say Wagner blows it in every big situation. Obviously an exaggeration. But I can say, from years of watching him in Houston, that he's the kind of pitcher whose numbers don't tell the whole story. I loved Wagner and was sad to see him go, but he wasn't the kind of pitcher that I ever felt safe having on the mound. With guys like Hoffman, Rivera, Gagne (for his healthy seasons), Nathan and the the 2004 version of Brad Lidge, you pretty much feel like the game is over when they come out of the 'pen. Not so with Wagner. He keeps you on the edge of your seat. And although he comes out victorious many times, those runners in scoring position with one out situations he gets himself into tend to catch up with him.
Permalink
ChristofMVP
1222 days ago
Score 0+-
Green nails it right on the head. When the pressure is truly on, Wagner wilts like a flower in the summertime sun.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1223 days ago
Score 3+-
Short answer - No. Long answer - Hell NO! Goose, Goose, Goose, Goose and Goose are the top 5!
Permalink | Reply
PeanMajor Leaguer
1223 days ago
Score 3+-
maybe he meant the Mets second most dominant closer ever?
Permalink | Reply
The sharkDraft Pick
1223 days ago
Score 1+-
I agree with Pean, here. He has the capability of being dominant but it's quite a stretch to put him number #2 all-time. I'd rather have Eckersley or Lee Smith than Wagner.
Permalink
RoblefkoLegend
1223 days ago
Score 8+-
behind who? looper or benitez?
Permalink
PeanMajor Leaguer
1223 days ago
Score 1+-
john franco?
Permalink
RomiezzoLegend
173 days ago
Score 0+-
I wish I could say Aaron Heilman, but he's not a closer.
Permalink
RoblefkoLegend
1223 days ago
Score 1+-
ha, i crack myself up
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1223 days ago
Score 1+-
that cracked me up too! I wanted to take a similar shot... I was gonna say neil Allen or Doug Sisk, but yours were definitely better!
Permalink
MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
1223 days ago
Score 0+-
Closer is not a position that it impresses me to say "all time great." It is a relatively new position.
Permalink | Reply
ASwaffAll-American
1223 days ago
Score 1+-
True, but I'd rather have a debate about best closer of all time than have a debate about best "pure hitter" of all time. Sports cliches and trite sayings need to go away.
Permalink
UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1223 days ago
Score 1+-
ah, another topic for my thursday "rant" column lol
Permalink
Patrickburke1980All-American
1223 days ago
Score 2+-
My vote goes to 'Eck'
Permalink | Reply
UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1223 days ago
Score 1+-
i want my closer to be able to dominate in the postseason (like mariano rivera). Wagner doesnt have much (if any??) postseason experience, so there's no way you can make such a claim for him.
Permalink | Reply
ASwaffAll-American
1222 days ago
Score 0+-
He had five divisional series appearances with the Astros in 97, 98, 99 and 01. Cumulatively, he is 1-0 with a 9.64 ERA in 4.2 innings in the playoffs. He also has 7 Ks. Hoffman is 1-2 with three saves and a 3.75 ERA. Rivera is 8-1 with 34 saves and a 0.81 ERA.
Permalink
BWWWaterboy
1222 days ago
Score -2+-
the second smartest guy with Downs Syndrome? does it matter?
Permalink | Reply
Anonymous Fanatic #1
1222 days ago
Score 1+-
??? that has to be one of the most offensive things written on this site ever
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1222 days ago
Score 0+-
it's not offensive, he makes a good point. Who cares about #2 in anything? Just to mention Downs Syndrome is not offensive.
Permalink
Angels FanJV Squad
1222 days ago
Score 0+-
Wagner is good, but to be the 2nd most dominating closer, he would need to be dominant for many more years - particularly as stated, is critical situations. Not everyone can be Rivera who's team pays to get into the playoffs each year, but critical situations happen outside the playoffs as well. My vote goes to Hoffman, but I'm sure with his performance at the All Star game this year, I'll get some nay sayers.
Permalink | Reply
ASwaffAll-American
1222 days ago
Score 4+-
If you get any naysayers because of the All Star Game, they're clueless. One exhibition game doesn't wipe out one of the most prolific careers in baseball history.
Permalink
UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1222 days ago
Score 0+-
Good point. The allstar game is in no way indicative of Hoffman's great career. This season, though, hasn't been so good to him.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1222 days ago
Score 3+-
I'll take Hoffman's one AllStar game loss over Mo's one game 7 loss anyday
Permalink
ASwaffAll-American
1222 days ago
Score 0+-
It's really just the last couple of weeks that haven't been very good to him. He blew the All Star Game, and since then, he's blown two saves and recorded one loss. Until the All-Star Game, he had blown only one save, and had an ERA of 1.03. In five appearances since the break, he's 0-1 with just three saves in five chances, and has an ERA of 12.26.
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #2
1203 days ago
Score 1+-
wagner blows big games and walks far to many for a closer...rivera is the best then Eckersley then hoffman...wagner is farther down the list he has been fairly consistent his career but i think will fade as he cant throw 100 mph any more
Permalink | Reply
Anonymous Fanatic #3
173 days ago
Score 1+-
Wagner has had a great career as a reliever, but he is not a great closer. The issue is that you're using averages. What you should really be looking at is clustering things, in particular- what he looks like on a bad day (the worst 5 or 10% of his appearances). Look at that, plus his walks, and you are not seeing a closer- you're seeing a hurler. There's no way I'd want him at the end of my bullpen. Wagner has the makeup of the greatest setup man of all time basically. A great reliever that now and then is going to need someone steadier to bail him out. For my money, Eck or Mariano have to be the best of all time. Gossage is up there too. These are guys who will come in with no outs and the bases loaded because Wagner lost his composure and say "Give me the ball" and will strand guys. Hoffman is also an all-time great, the kind of guy you want to build a franchise around- though in a tight spot I'd probably go with Rivera (which is ironic, as I'm a Red Sox fan- but gotta give credit where it's due... even if we do own him ever since end of 2004).
Permalink | Reply
RomiezzoLegend
173 days ago
Score 0+-
Hey, Red Sox fan... Sign up. You know your stuff, and I think you'd be a great baseball mind for the ArmchairGM community.
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #3
173 days ago
Score 1+-
Though if this were about the funniest closer of all time, that would be Tug McGraw.
Permalink | Reply
Add your Comment
ArmchairGM welcomes all comments. If you don't want to be anonymous, Register or Login. It's free


Retrieved from "http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Is_Billy_Wagner_the_second_most_dominant_closer_ever%3F"

This page was last modified 18:37, 26 July 2006. Content is available under the GFDL.

Contribute

ArmchairGM's pages can be edited.
Is this page incomplete? Is there anything wrong?
Change it!

Edit this page Discuss this page Page history

Recent contributors to this page

The following people recently contributed to this article.

Embed this on your site

Main Page About Special Pages Help Terms of Use Advertise