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I would fire an Ozzie

16
Vote

by user Xinoph

If I were GM or owner of a Major League Baseball team, and my team's manager went off on a reporter like Ozzie did on Jay Mariotti, I would fire him.

Not only is it advantageous for a team to have a good relationship with the media - any ten-year-old could figure that one out, but apparently it's beyond Ozzie - it offends a good number of people. Even if the overwhelmingly male, overwhelmingly homophobic sports fans don't mind the use of the term, it's really a dismissable offense, not a suspendable offense - and as we've seen here, there are those who think it's not worth a suspension!

When you think using a slur isn't offensive, isn't worth getting upset about, odds are you're bigoted against that group. But, just because all too many athletes and sports fans feel that way doesn't mean the franchise has to condone it, and my team wouldn't. I would make it clear from their hiring that it's the duty of every staff member and player on the team to represent the franchise publicly, and if they did that poorly their jobs would be on the line.

To not punish someone for using that term - no matter what they say they intended, after living in this country for any length of time it should be obvious what it means here - is to condone not only the use of that term, but homophobia in general. Yes, by not punishing Ozzie, the White Sox are condoning homophobia. While most sports fans might be comfortable with that, I'm not.

I don't think it's OK to use terms of hatred casually.
I don't think it's OK to use terms of hatred at all.

This society is already bigoted enough against homosexuals without the World Series champions encouraging it. When an athlete is accused of being gay, they rush out to defend their honor and get seen on the arms of as many beautiful women as possible.

Wouldn't it be better if they just said "None of your damn business"? Then they wouldn't imply that homosexuality was this horrible, unmentionable offense, and they wouldn't feed the tabloid machine. But no, they have to be the big macho he-man. Everybody wants to be Wilt Chamberlain.

Teams are businesses, and the main point of any team is to make money. I understand that. I wouldn't necessarily expect a team in a less worldly city to rush out and condemn comments like Ozzie's. But, it should certainly be punished in a major city. While I can appreciate that not everyone thinks this is a fireable offense - a lot of people don't care about bigotry if it's not directed against them - I can't imagine that anyone who thinks it shouldn't be punished isn't a bigot.

So let's be honorable, sports fans. If this were an ethnic slur, everybody would be calling for Ozzie's head. Let's treat all bigotry and hatred the same, not ignore it when directed against certain groups. That's not how a democratic, pluralist society should function, and we American sports fans might like to show some class once in a while to the rest of the world.

I know this article won't get a lot of votes, or help my user ranking much. But it's something that needs to be said, regardless of whether people agree with it.

Date

Thu 06/22/06, 5:42 am EST

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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -6+-
Again, in this country, there is the First Amendment that protects the right for people to speak their minds free. This is a core principle of freedom. You may not agree with what some say, and you can say so, like you are doing here. But, as far as firing the guy, for those comments - the punishement there does not fit the crime. If you want to send a message, don't buy White Sox merchandise, or White Sox tickets, or White Sox games on the TV or radio. But to fire him is just wrong. The punishment there attack the core foundation of this society- for if people cannot speak their minds freely without fear of losing their jobs, then a democratic society cannot survive.
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ThefoulpoleSoccer Kid
1257 days ago
Score -5+-
Well put.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
1257 days ago
Score 4+-
so joe torre can call ozzie a dirty spic and it would be OK?
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SteaksammichRed-Shirting
1257 days ago
Score 8+-
Joe Schmoe can go down the streets of Chicago yelling out about fags and whatever else he wants and he can't get in trouble for that. But Ozzie represents the White Sox. The United States and the laws we follow can't punish the guy, but his employers certainly can. I work for Fed Ex. If I show up to work without wearing my uniform I would be told to go home even though I have the freedom to wear whatever the hell I want because it's against their policy. No one is suggesting the Guillen should be punished because his idiotic comments are against the law. Everyone thinks the guy should be punished because he's doing a pretty piss poor job of representing baseball and the White Sox.
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -4+-
Personally, if Joe Torre did that, so be it. It would create a lot of heat and press, and make the rivalry b/w CWS and NYY more interesting. Beyond that, I could care less. Let the man speak his mind. We are America. You cannot have any freedom if you are fearful of speaking your mind openly.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
1257 days ago
Score 2+-
Ok, so when a riot ensues at Yankee Stadium with people trying to take out Joe Torre and all the players, and people get injured, it will be worth it for the sake of freedom of speech
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -1+-
So the conclusion that I can come from this is: you cannot say anything that may start a riot. Is that what you are saying?
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ThecrookedcapAll-Star
1257 days ago
Score 1+-
It's the old "Shouting Fire! in a crowded theatre" principle.
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Awrigh01All-Star
1257 days ago
Score 1+-
I agree with the part about there being a double standard.
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ThefoulpoleSoccer Kid
1257 days ago
Score -3+-
I don't think you understand how much the city of Chicago as well as the sports teams in Chicago hate Jay Mariotti. I know he seems like a good reporter on TV, but as a media member myself, he is not a quality journalist.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -5+-
What matters is what he said, not who he said it to. Again, it's irrelevant how popular Jay is. It's what Ozzie said to him that matters - the specific word. If he wanted to call Jay an asshole I wouldn't care, but using offensive derogatory language is, well, offensive. And derogatory. By your logic offensive language is only offensive if the target is popular, and that's frankly moronic.
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ThefoulpoleSoccer Kid
1257 days ago
Score 2+-
But none the less, he should be fined at least.
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Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score 4+-
Stop with this 'freedom of speech' argument. As Steak said, it's not about that. It's about baseball and the White Sox condoning completely indefensible behavior. To not fire, or at the very least fine him heavily, is a slap in the face to the gay community. What is he had called a black reporter the 'N' word? Would that be acceptible?
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -8+-
It is all about freedom of speech. Plain and simple. This is just of another example of "oh no, he said something that I do not find politically correct. He must be silenced." The more this game is played, the more our freedoms and democratic principles are endangered.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
1257 days ago
Score 2+-
Christof...why don't you call someone at work the 'N' word, and let me know how that works out for you
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -5+-
I don't use the N word, so I won't do that. (Note - The Philadelphia Daily News actually did a story on N-word last week.) Anyway, the point here is you got to let people speak their minds. We are doing it RIGHT HERE on ArmchairGM. Some views I do not agree with and some comments I have found personally offensive. However, I am not screaming about them. This society is based on freedom. You cannot have freedom if you are afraid that your words will offend people. But saying, well because so and so said something that I find offensive, he must be fired, is just plain ridiculous.
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ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score 3+-
The freedom of speech arguement is ridiculous. The responsibility in this matter falls squarely on the White Sox organization just like any other employer in a simialr situation. I don't think he should be fired, but a proportional response is needed. A fine and most likely some type of sensitivity classes would be a logical move. By idly sitting by the White Sox are condoning this type of derogatory comments. You think if A.J. called Stephen A. Smith a stupid n****r the entire nation wouldn't be up in arms and he wouldn't be out of baseball; you are kidding yourself. For an example see John Rocker. You have the freedom to say whatever you want in this country. Likewise, your employer has the freedom to fire your ass if he doesn't like it.
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -4+-
You know, as the Philadelphia Daily News pointed out, there is a double standard involved with the N-word. What the problem here is that there are serious issues, serious divides among the American public on matters. Some of the vocabulary that is used can be offensive to some. I am, however, not a believer is limiting or banning speech that I or others may find offensive. Let the market place of ideas hash it out. If you support the idea, do so in that market. If you don't support it, do so in that market. I rather keep the market place of ideas wide open through the means of the freedom of speech, for the alternative, which is violence, is far worse than simply offending someone by a comment.
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ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score 0+-
Let the market place od ideas hash it out? You don't think poor choices in words hasn't created violence already? Certain words have a stigma because the tend to create violence. This isn't just a political correctness issue. As far as derogatory comments go, I'm pretty sure the "market place of ideas" has spoken on the subject and found them offensive.
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -3+-
Chachi - you think banning public speech on certain topics will stop violence on certain matters. Come on now. At least when you have people speaking openly, you know where they stand. You force them to go into the closet will only increase the hate in the long run and increase violence in the future. Freedom of speech gives folks an outlet to express their views. The alternative, which is violence, is far, far worse than having some people offended.
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ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm not banning public speech. Where did I say that at all? What I said was many derogatory terms lead to violence. I'm all for the open expression of thoughts and ideas through intellectual conversation, not cheap shots at ones ethnicity or sexual orientation. You have a problem, share your thoughts, ideas, and feelings. You take cheap shots, berate, and put down others in a hateful manner and you will only recieve hatred in return. This isn't about the freedom of public speech. This is about this type of speech possibly leading to worse things. Speech like this is what halts the open conversations.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -2+-
Couldn't have said it better myself. Hey, you know what? Businesses don't care about right or wrong, they care about making money. So if you act like an asshat and it reflects poorly on the business, you get fired because it's bad for the business. You have a right to freedom of speech, you don't have a right to be Manager of the Chicago White Sox.
Permalink | Reply
ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -7+-
My question for you is this: Has Ozzie's comments hurt the White Sox business. It has generated free publicity. You are correct that businesses care about making a profit. I just don't think this is going to hurt the bottom line, whatsoever.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -5+-
If you think that, I am not surprised you're not understanding what so many of us are writing about this.
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Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score 3+-
Our society is based on freedom of speech Our jobs are not.
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -3+-
Really. If you cannot have freedom of speech, can you really have a capitalist market. Jobs are a major part of society. So your comment that freedom of speech is not connected with our jobs is just plain wrong.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -4+-
Well put, Patrick. You can be fired for what you say, you just can't be jailed.
Permalink
Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score 4+-
What if I told my boss he is a stupid fucking cunt?
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PeanMajor Leaguer
1257 days ago
Score 1+-
pat thank god i already drank my cofee, or it would be all over my laptop
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Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score 6+-
"Sorry boss, just exercising my freedom of speech. You can't fire me!"
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -1+-
Exactly. Freedom of speech is irrelevant here, and to use a constitutional right as an argument for why someone shouldn't be fired is childish and simplistic at best, purposely misleading at worst. It's a red herring. Just as the 2nd Amendment doesn't force every employer to let their employees bring handguns to work, the first amendment doesn't force every employer to tolerate offensive speech.
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -6+-
You know, one thing that I am finding in these comments thread is the number of Minuses I am racking up - in support of the view of allowing people to express themselves openly. Wow, out of the all the things to really surprise me - my support for Freedom of Speech drawing such a massive amount of dislike is a shocker.
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ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score 2+-
I think you are receiving minuses because your comments are supporting inflammatory speech that can cause nation wide tension between groups of people instead of creating an open and truly free society.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -2+-
You're getting minuses because the whole freedom of speech argument is irrelevant and moronic in this case. You have freedom to speech, not freedom to work. You do understand that, right? If Ozzie were being jailed for his comments you might just have a point. But we're only talking about firing his ass. So throw away your constitutional red herring.
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ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score 4+-
Look, Red Sox and Yankee fans uniting on an arguement. You must be wrong.
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Ray agmJV Squad
1257 days ago
Score 2+-
You're getting minuses because...while your intentions are positive, your concept of freedom of speech is distorted. I'm not going to explain why, it's all very clear in this thread.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -4+-
Exactly. If he doesn't understand it at this point he never will, it's probably not worth any further effort.
Permalink
Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score 3+-
The minuses are due to your poorly defending Ozzie Guillen's actions. No one here has critized the freedom of speech.
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Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score -1+-
Christof, I will give you a +1 for making this an interesting thread.
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -4+-
The argument I am seeing from many commentors is this: Ozzi used a word that some people think is offensive to insult a sports writer. Hence, Ozzi must be fired or at least fine. Freedom of speech does not apply because he was working when he said that. The CWS should act because their bottom line is being effected. The problem I have with this is as follows: Managers or head coaches in any sport must speak with the press, it is one of their job requirements. If you are to fine Ozzi for insulting a sports writer, than should you fine any manager or head coach who says his players suck (either long-term or short-term), or that they don't have enough to win, or they re-tooling for next season. I mean, those comments hurt the bottom line, be it lowering of tickets sold, decline in viewership for games, or loss of merchandise sales. (I would also like to point out that those comments would have far greater impact on those items than a manager insulting a sportswriter). Therefore, to take the argument being presented here to its logical conclusion - a manager or head coach must only say great things about the club. If not, they could fined or fired. Do you now understand why I think fining or firing Ozzi leads to end of freedom of speech is sports?
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ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score 5+-
No, and I think your arguement above is ridiculous. You obviously haven't paid attention to anything anyone has said so far.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score 0+-
You are apparently not understanding any of the issues involved. Ozzie would not be fined for insulting a sports writer. He would be punished in some way for using a phrase that is widely offensive to a huge groups of Americans, a slur. His freedom of speech would not be violated. He has the freedom to say whatever he likes. He does not have the right not to be fired. You are either totally ignoring or totally misinterpreting everything written by others in response to your points; that's why you're getting minus points. Your comments thus far reflect a simplistic understanding of both constitutional rights and business, and an inability to engage in logical discussion with people who disagree with you.
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Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score 5+-
How can you compare calling a sportswriter a fag (as Xinoph said, its a highly offensive slur)to saying a player had a bad game? You are just not following what everyone is arguing.
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -2+-
Ok, a little over 10 years, then Philadelphia Phillies manager Jim Fregosi, in an interview, commented that callers to the local sports talk station were, something to the affect, guys from South Philly who slept with their sisters and had kids with them. Are you telling me Fregosi should have been fined or fired as well (he will neither).
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -4+-
Not a legitimate comparison. Try again. Your understanding of the situation has not improved.
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score -4+-
Why is that not a legitimate comparison? Fregosi did insult a group of Americans with a huge slur.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -3+-
Well, let me rephrase: the comparison is legitimate, but the comparison itself is irrelevant. We shouldn't always do things a certain way because they were done that way ten years ago. Who cares what happened then? It was poorly handled then. Yes, he should have been fired. But just because he wasn't doesn't mean that Ozzie shouldn't be. Hopefully, we improve how we handle these situations, not stay stuck in the same rut.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -4+-
By the way all, I do apprecaite the good number of votes this article has gotten. I thought it would get ignored, and it hasn't. That's heartening.
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Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score -6+-
I give Chrisof credit for sticking to the argument knowing his score will take a huge hit.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -3+-
I don't think he should get much credit for ignoring or not understanding every other opinion offered, or for refusing to respond to those who disagree with him. Why should he get any credit for that? It's one thing to stick to your guns. It's another to ignore differing points of view and try to win the argument at any cost.
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Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score -1+-
You may not agree with what he's saying or how he's saying it. Would you rather him not say anything at all? Everyone is entitled to voicing what their opinion, be it wrong in your eyes or not.
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ChristofMVP
1257 days ago
Score 1+-
You know Patrick, I have not given out a single + or - in this whole comment thread. Sure, I disagree with most of the posts, but I don't think giving out a + or - in this type of discussion is useful.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -3+-
I AM NOT AGAINST FREEDOM OF SPEECH. For the simple-minded amongst you, I thought I'd say that plainly and clearly since that continues to be a childish red herring in this debate. I am against sports teams, which are looked up to by millions of children and form a pillar of American society, condoning bigotry. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion. Everyone is not entitled to be Manager of the Chicago White Sox. Get your head out of the sand and read what was written again, and you might actually understand the point I was making.
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PeanMajor Leaguer
1257 days ago
Score 0+-
totally unrelated...hey xinoph, have you been on vaca or something?
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -4+-
And yes, Patrick, you're certainly right, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Did I ever say otherwise? Of course not. But I'm going to give negative votes to irrelevant, poorly argued opinions.
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XinophDraft Pick
1257 days ago
Score -5+-
Yeah Pean, that got posted in the wrong place. Don't quite have this reply system down yet :)
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Patrickburke1980All-American
1257 days ago
Score 2+-
I agree with Chrisof, the Fregossi comment is equally as wrong in principal, and as such would deserve similar punishment.
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UfgatorsDiv-I Stud
1257 days ago
Score 0+-
I read that there are more puerto ricans in new york than in puerto rico at points during the year. i dont think Joe torre making racial slurs is the smartest of ideas.
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ASwaffAll-American
1257 days ago
Score 0+-
I don't know that I'd fire him so quickly after winning a World Series, but I certainly wouldn't remain mum on it like the White Sox have. The club should have suspended it. This should be Chicago's problem, not Major League Baseball's. But it is MLB's problem, because the Sox front office won't step up to the plate and do what's right. I don't think I'd fire him so quickly after winning a World Series, but then, I probably wouldn't have hired him in the first place.
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SteaksammichRed-Shirting
1257 days ago
Score 0+-
A bit off topic...but I dont' think I've seen one person get so many negative comments in one post without getting any support whatsoever as Christof in this post. I think that's kinda funny
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ASwaffAll-American
1256 days ago
Score 1+-
I didn't give a minus to Christof's statement, because I think five minuses would be overkill. But I will say that perhaps those that gave him minuses without saying why refrained from commenting because they felt that they didn't need to. The fallacy of his argument and his complete misunderstanding of the situation AND the argument that those who complaining about Guillen are presenting, should be pretty obvious without further elaboration. That comment that got four minuses could not have been more wrong.
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