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How is Thome Not a First Ballot Hall of Famer?

17
Vote

by Tyduffy

Jim Thome hit his 500th homerun in 2007.  It is a hallowed statistic that once granted one an automatic place in Cooperstown.  But, in the wake of the steroid era, the 500th home-run has lost its luster.

Unfortunately, this will tarnish Thome's legacy, a travesty for a country strong guy who's post-game fitness training constitutes a cold beer.

There was an immediate backlash about how Thome was not a legitimate first-ballot hall of famer.  It was not just angry bloggers, but noted pundits such as Buster Olney who came out against Thome going in on the first ballot.

Here is the Olney Argument

He currently ranks 67th in career RBIs, despite playing in an offense rich era...He currently ranks 105th in career runs scored. Thome has hit a ton of homers and drawn a ton of walks, but he hasn't been extraordinary at scoring runs or driving them in.

Alright, Thome's value as a player relies upon how many runs he has driven in and how many runs he has scored.  So, essentially, his value rests upon how many people were on-base when he was at the plate to score, and how many people hitting behind him came through to bring him around. His value as a player thus rests upon two factors that are almost completely unrelated to his individual performance?

He was not a fast player, but over the course of his career he has gotten on base in one way shape or form 40% of the times he came to the plate.  That's more than doing one's fair share to score runs.

As far as the number of RBI per home run argument, what big name player is most famous for having low RBI totals for the amount of home runs he hits?  Barry Bonds!  A player who, steroids aside, would be a unanimous hall of famer.  Perhaps, the number of runs batted in has more to do with how many people are on base?  Or, perhaps teams would pitch to Thome less, like with Bonds, when there were runners in scoring position?

If you are going to make that argument, include a reason why this is a knock on his ability.  He is hitting and he is getting on base.  Why is the relative lack of run production his fault?

Even so, is having over 100 RBIs in nine out of his twelve full seasons "ordinary" production?

Here are two reasons Thome is a first ballot hall of famer.

  1. .974 Career OPS, Thome has five seasons above 1.000 OPS and has never had lower than .929 OPS.  He has nine seasons of .400 OBP or better and three seasons over .600 slugging.
  2. 507 Home Runs, Thome has hit over 30 home runs in eleven out of his twelve full seasons (eleven straight full seasons).  He his hit over 40 home runs  six times, and hit over 50 in 2002.


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KelsdadAll-Star
787 days ago
Score 2+-
Because most of what he accomplished was as a DH. Without the DH, he would either be a part time player somewhere or out of baseball altogether. Thus, he reached numbers he otherwise wouldn't have come close to.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 1+-
If you DH even once, you're a traitor (or worse) in Kelsdad's book. If Mickey Mantle never got to DH then NO ONE else should either! Dammit, pitchers! Stand up there and take the retaliation like a man. And dammit batters, they already killed the cow to make the glove, respect the cow! (I'm looking at YOU, Giambi!)
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KelsdadAll-Star
786 days ago
Score 1+-
Gimme a break, Manny. I'm OK with once.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 0+-
but only if they play the field sometime during the game, thus negating the DH spot and forcing the pitcher/pinch hitters to bat, right?
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KelsdadAll-Star
786 days ago
Score 1+-
Wife not home yet?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 2+-
Ha ha! Actually I've been busy getting banned from Jaythejoke.com (again) - Tyrone is an administrator now (heeeeeeeeeee's baaaaaaaack), so I'm gonna HAVE to give him a ration - did you notice Friends is on or something? She's not home yet, but when she gets home I'm out the door! I actually have to meet with a couple I am marrying next month (being the supercool will-marry-for-open-bar-priviledges ordained minister and all). We're meeting at Z Tejas for margaritas!
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KelsdadAll-Star
786 days ago
Score 1+-
All priests/reverends/ministers won't show up to bless a pile of dog shit unless there's an open bar. Tell me something I don't know.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 1+-
I would bless a pile of dog shit without alcohol, but I'd need at least a bong hit...
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KelsdadAll-Star
786 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm actually surprised there's an open bar. One concept that has yet to reach the Southwest.

I'm in Arizona about six months and go to a cousin's wedding at some ha-te-da resort in Scottsdale, go up to the bar and get a beer, bartender says "$3". At first, I thought he was asking for a tip, best one I could have thought of at the time was to call 911. Then he says its for the brew. Incredously, I ask him why, he says cash bar. I put the beer down and walked away. That was 15 years ago. Last year, I go to a neighbor's wedding same thing.

Twenty some odd years of restaurant/catering in CT I never even was asked to provide a cash bar, never mind ever saw one somewhere else.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 1+-
the wedding's in <hoidy-toidy font/> Cave Creek <hoidy-toidy> out in the "desert" but the reception is <snobby font/> North Scottsdale <snobby font> and they bride and groom are both alcoholics whom I have never seen at a non-drinking engagement! Out of the dozen or so weddings I've been to here in AZ this will be the second open bar (mine was the other open bar, but we only had like 12 people at the reception - at a golf course my wife was a manager at the time - the entire menu was samples of future menu items, twas a swet deal)
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KelsdadAll-Star
786 days ago
Score 1+-
And yours doesn't count because you're from the East Coast, which means you have a clue.
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RomiezzoLegend
786 days ago
Score 1+-
"Most of what he accomplished was at the DH position."

Hmm...he has played in 1101 games at 1B. He actually has more game at third base than DH.

1B: 1101

3B: 392

DH: 388
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TyduffyRed-Shirting
786 days ago
Score 0+-
He has only played DH the past two seasons with Chicago. Every season before that he played at first or third for the vast majority of his games.
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KelsdadAll-Star
786 days ago
Score 0+-
Either way, he played 388 games he wouldn't have otherwise, which means he wouldn't have 500 homers.
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
786 days ago
Score 0+-
That's not really true. If there was no DH, he'd most likely be playing first somewhere. He's DHing for the White Sox because Konerko's already at first and Thome's not a great defensive 1B, but somebody would certainly take him even if there were no DH. The DH might add some games on to the very end of his career, but that doesn't affect anything he's done to this point.
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Silencer76AAA-er
786 days ago
Score 0+-
Thome hasn't played third since 1996.

As for his OPS never being below .929, look at his first four seasons. .665, .574, .859, .882...in the injury shortened 05 season it was .712.

Thome has never won the MVP, never driven in more than 131 runs in a year and has hit better than .300 just three times. Those are all factors too, especially in today's offensive driven time.
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Hit By a PitchVarsity
786 days ago
Score 1+-
He's also, what, the second nicest guy in baseball -- not that this counts, but still, he's just all around awesome. At the end of the season, he went to the Cell and gave personalized, autographed photos to every person who works there. That's just the nicest thing, really.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 1+-
Fred McGriff is the nicest - and the guy that just got behind Thome in the line at the door into Cooperstown. See, McGriff is SO nice that he let Thome pass him in HRs!
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TyduffyRed-Shirting
786 days ago
Score 3+-
I said full seasons to be fair

Never driven in more than 131 runs? That's like using the fact that someone has never hit more than 43HR to deny them a HOF spot. Also, I think I made fairly clear that the RBI argument doesn't really pan out.

He has a .281 career BA which is decent enough when you are a power hitter and your on base percentage is .409.
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RomiezzoLegend
786 days ago
Score 1+-
He's currently 37 years old, so he's probably got about 2-3 years left, at least. In those 2-3 years, he has likely to be in the top 15. If Frank Thomas has a good chance of being a first balloter to many people, why can't Jim Thome? Thome has played more on the field than Frank Thomas has. Frank Thomas hasn't played 1B since 2004, and he played only 4 games there. Thome probably CAN still play first base, but Paul Konerko is better on defense than he is. Plus, Konerko's younger. It only makes sense.
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RomiezzoLegend
786 days ago
Score 1+-
OK, now, getting back on topic here, Thome IS a first balloter and here's why:

He is currently 16th (all time) in slugging percentage with .565, and 16th in OPS with .974. 22nd in HRs (ok so what?),and 66th in RBIs (1398); when he retires, he will have 1500, which only 47 people have been able to do. BTW, the only person who is eligible to become a HOFer and have 1500 RBIs in a career is Andre Dawson. He also has 900 extra base hits, and is 4th in at-bats/HR in a career (13.5).

So, do I think he's a first balloter? Hell yeah, if he continues to do what he's doing for about 2-3 years.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 1+-
Is he a Hall of Fqamer? Most likely... Is a first ballot Hall of Famer? Depends on who else is on the ballot with him!
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Confessions Of A FanaticDiv-I Stud
786 days ago
Score 0+-
I think the big issue here is MVP candidacy and team success. Neither Thome, nor his teams, have ever collected any hardware, an indicator of both personal success and contribution to your team. I'm not a staunch opponent ot him getting in first ballot, but I think he should have to wait a year perhaps. I guess it really all depends on who he's up against that year.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 1+-
Now explain why if a person is a Hall of Famer, why should they wait? Either you ARE or you AREN'T. The voting doesn't occur until you've been out of the game 5 years. What happens between year 5 and year 6 that suddenly makes him a HoFer? WHY should he have to wait?
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Confessions Of A FanaticDiv-I Stud
786 days ago
Score 0+-
There's no change in the player, but the change in who's up for induction could and has affected when someone gets into the Hall of Fame. Let's say that when Thome is elligible, he happens to be up against 3 or 4 other guys with better credentials, he could be left off, and not because he's not worthy of the first ballot election, but because his competition was simply too good for his numbers to overcome that year.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 0+-
Voters don't have a limit to how many people they can vote for... they can vote for EVERY eligible player if they like. 3-4 MORE worthy players aren't going to change Jim Thome's worthiness, are they?
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DonatevoMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 0+-
500 homers should get you in.
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RomiezzoLegend
786 days ago
Score 0+-
Tell Mark McGwire that. He MIGHT get in, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's going in on the first ballot.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
786 days ago
Score 0+-
Rafael Palmiero wags his finger in agreement
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RomiezzoLegend
786 days ago
Score 0+-
He's shouldn't be talked about in this discussion yet. Remember he played in his last game in 2005.
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
785 days ago
Score 0+-
Fred McGriff is so mad right now! 7 more meaningless homers and he'd be an automatic HOF!
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
785 days ago
Score 0+-
Patty LaBelle says Thome is a first ballot hall of famer 'cause he rescued her from his younger White Sox teammates in a bar.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
712 days ago
Score 0+-
JT is a classy athlete and deserves a nod into the Hall the first time around
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