armchairgm
all sports, all you
+ Add Friends
You are not logged-in.
Sign Up - Log In
Main Page
Sports
Write
Articles
Hot Links
Images
Meet People
Fun
Explore
MLB - NFL - NBA - NHL - College Basketball - College Football - Soccer - Nascar - Other
Article - Locker Room Discussion
All Articles - New Articles - Today's Articles
Submit a Link - Approve Links
Picture Game - Ratings - Polls - Pick Game - Quiz Game - Spring Silliness
Random Page - Random Image - Random Fan
Edit
Page history Discuss pageWhat links here

Dynasty?...Puhlease!

13
Vote

by user Stumptown

For my money there have only ever been 2 NBA dynasties.  If, after reading my definition, you think others fit, please let me know.  The American public wants dynasties.  We want to believe that we are all actual witnesses.  That's what make those silly Nike adds so effective.  We all want to believe our era and the things we are witnessing are historic.  That's why we jumped on Lebron's "48 Special" against Detroit and started throwing around crazy labels like "best ever."  It may not have even been one of the top 20 performances in playoff history, but we want to believe we're seeing the best.

That's why, every time the same team wins more than one title, we bust out the "D" word.  This practice brings to mind a few other "D" words like "dubious", "doubtful", "demented" or just plain "dumb."  Still, when an NBA team gets their 3rd ring in less than a decade you at least have an argument to make since you are clearly talking about a dominant team.  But is dominance the real definition of dynasty? (unintended aliteration).  I don't think so.  I only know about 2 NBA dynasties.  Maybe some older Laker teams that I'm forgetting fit this mold, but I can only think of 2.

A dynasty doesn't rule a year.  It doesn't even rule for several years.  It's not one of the best for a period of time.  A dynasty controls an era, a generation and does it alone.  A dynasty leads you to believe that no one else has a shot at the title until the king is dead.  That's why the Spurs, despite 4 rings in 8 years, are not a dynasty.  They were consistenly good, but not scary good.  No one ever said, too bad we played in this era because no one but the Spurs can win.  They aren't even clearly the most dominant team of the last 10 years as you have to put the Lakers of Shaq and Kobe in that conversation.  You can't have two dynasties in the same era, by definition.  There is only one king.  If you have two, what you have is something different.

Don't get me wrong, the Spurs are a great team and deserving champs and all that.  Duncan rightly takes his place as one of the greatest players of all time and maybe the best of the last 10 years.  Same goes for the Lakers before them, but the spurs have not held the league in a strangle hold for a prolonged period.  The only teams to have done that are the Jordan Bulls and the Russell Celtics.  I can't count the Bird Celtics (my favorite teams of all time) or the Magic Lakers because they had each other.  Niether team dominated the era because either team seemed just as likely to win the title every year and some other good franchises like the Sixers and Rockets also messed things up.

But in the 90s when MJ was on his 6 ring tear, there was a real sense that they were unbeatable.  Sure they were in some battles that could have gone either way, but even now you hear talk about Karl Malone and Sir Charles that it was just unlucky they lived in the Jordan era because during his reign he could not be stopped.  In fact the only player that could stop the Jordan led Bulls was Jordan as he showed when he went away to pretend to be a baseball player.  That's more than half the decade of being the prohibitive favorite every year and basically owning the league.  Now that's a dynasty.

The Russell Celts got 11 rings if I'm not mistaken, so that pretty much speaks for itself.

And that's the list.  If the Spurs win 3 or 4 more in the next 5 years, they will be a dynasty.  Otherwise, their wins are too spread out and too frequently interrupted by other teams with legit claims to the throne.

All of this is really just a plea to stop throwing around words like dynasty and genius and best ever just because we want to believe we are in the presence of historic dominance.  Maybe we are just watching some good teams.  Maybe the new kids on the block haven't yet matched the success of their forefathers.  Maybe we should respect the history we witnessed before. 

So, no more dynasty talk...ok?  Thanks.


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
JuTMSY4Legend
923 days ago
Score 1+-
An interesting thought. I think you're right, that we want to quickly crown dynasties, but I don't think the public wants them per se...its just that each fan wants their team to have a dynasty...and they're hard to come by

Although, the reason Magic's Lakers and Bird's Cs didn't become your version of a dynasty may have something to do with the fact that they played eachother...and yeah teams like the sixers also got in the mix.

But, more to my point, if there are dynasties, is that because basketball is less competitive all around the league, or that 1 player/team is dominant...or that no dynasties means more talent around the league?
Permalink | Reply
StumptownJV Squad
923 days ago
Score 1+-
Great questions all around. Just like the flaws with Hollinger's (at espn.com) rankings of finals teams the problem comes in the fact that there is no good way to objectively rate "strength of schedule" or how good the league is overall. Even looking at the Jordan titles with the Bulls. I think he got there on a combination of a couple down years for the league and a couple teams that would have won in any era. it's tough to say. My point is just that a dynasty has to be THE team of an era and for the NBA, that probably means you have to spend more than half a decade leaving everyone else feeling like they are playing for second.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
923 days ago
Score 1+-
So what you're saying is, we can't crown the spurs dynasty for another few years...
Permalink
StumptownJV Squad
923 days ago
Score 1+-
That's what I'm saying.
Permalink
I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
923 days ago
Score 3+-
I disagree. Four titles in nine years means the Spurs have won a title close to every other year for almost a decade. That's pretty much unheard of. I don't think a three-peat in the NBA definitely means a dynasty, but when it's four titles in nine years, that's a long time to be competitive. It's not like they've been in last the years they didn't win, they're in the mix every year. The last two championships have meant getting through some remarkable Western Conference foes.
Permalink | Reply
Taytay 24All-American
923 days ago
Score -2+-
Right there with you. Four in nine, plus all the other near misses makes a dynasty. Plus, they have done it in a decade when the West overall has been better than the East. Bottom line: they just win, baby.
Permalink
StumptownJV Squad
923 days ago
Score 0+-
I think all that means is they were arguably the best team of the last 9 years. Or maybe you go further and call them one of the best teams ever, but that's not what a dynasty is. If you are pulling a term from political history, you should at least allow how that term was originally defined to inform the new usage. Well, the Chinese dynasties weren't dynasties because a powerful family took the thrown every other year or 3 out of 5 years or something. They were the only family in power for an extended period of time. If there are others with legit claims to the throne and time spent ruling over that same, then you don't have a dynasty no matter how powerful the ruler is on any given year. You've got something, but not a dynasty.
Permalink
I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
921 days ago
Score 0+-
So you're saying if they had Yao Ming instead of TD?
Permalink
BigPPupMajor Leaguer
923 days ago
Score 1+-
I see where you are coming from with your argument. And there is a lot to be said for it. However, I think the overall package of consitancy that the Spurs have shown over the last 9 years is exceptional. Remember 4 in 9 and 3 in 5 is damn impressive. For what its worth the Spurs rank right around 4 or 5 for the all time dynasty.

1)Russel Celtics 2)Jordan Bulls 3)Lakers Showtime

4)Spurs Duncan maybe birds Celtics it gets ify.
Permalink | Reply
StumptownJV Squad
923 days ago
Score 0+-
Totally agree it is exceptional. You can make a case they are on the short list of all time great teams (if you can even make a list like that given how much teams change from year to year). But just because someone is really, really smart, doesn't make them a genius. Likewise, just because a team was very good for a long time and won some titles along the way doesn't make them a dynasty. Let's perserve that term and not dilute the meaning by including every team that puts together a string of good play. It isn't a criticism of the Spurs. It takes nothing away from them. they are an amazing team. They just don't have the strangle hold on the league that a dynasty has.
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
923 days ago
Score 0+-
If San Antonio hadn't botched the final moments of Game 7 in their series vs. Dallas last year, they'd probably have beaten Phoenix in the Conference Finals and definitely would have beaten Miami in the Finals... That would have made this year's title a three-peat, and their fifth in nine years. Would you have any problem calling them a dynasty then?
Permalink | Reply
False ProphetAll-Star
923 days ago
Score 0+-
I still think they're a dynasty, but even as a huge homer, I still have trouble with the Pats. Not enough time. A dynasty has to be the team you go through for a decade or longer. For as long as their on top, they have to be thrown around as the favorites for the title every year. They don't need to necessarily win the title every year. But they have to be in the post season, and get out of the first round just about every year.

The Spurs are on the verge for one reason. the Lakers. Their first title was interrupted by a strand of 3 straight by Shaq and Kobe. So, in my opinion, the first tile is debatable about whether to count it as part of the dynasty in the making or not. If they are a factor in the playoffs next season, I'll call it a dynasty. That'll make it 10 years, from 1998-2008.

Oh, and no one could have stopped the Heat last season. That was lightning in a bottle. D-Wade could not be stopped. But that was a one year wonder.
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
923 days ago
Score 0+-
I think the Spurs (one of the greatest defenses of all time) could have stopped him. But we'll never know...
Permalink
StumptownJV Squad
923 days ago
Score 0+-
I might have to change my tune then yes. That gets them to over half the decade of singular dominance that I'm looking for.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
923 days ago
Score 0+-
And if David Stern didn't fix the Suns series this season the Spurs wouldn't have made the Western Conference Finals. So that's a wash.
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score 0+-
"If" counts for nothing. Team names engraved in the trophy are all that matters. And if the same team does it for 4 consecutive years, then to me, that defines a dynasty.
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score -1+-
4 Consecutive Championships = "Dynasty". The Spurs have been impressive for the past decade but they have not had a run of year in/year out winning NBA Championships.
Permalink | Reply
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score 0+-
"Dynasty" is an overplayed word when so freely applied to an organization that wins more than one championship over 3-5 year stretch. Now go ahead and minus me you chumps for expressing a valid opinion. The Patriots are NOT a dynasty and neither are the Spurs. Dynasties win championships year after year consecutively.
Permalink | Reply
False ProphetAll-Star
923 days ago
Score 0+-
are you saying that the 49ers Dynasty under Joe Montana isn't a real dynasty? Cause last time I checked, they won 3 rings
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score -2+-
4 in a row. Anything else is strictly a damn good team.
Permalink
False ProphetAll-Star
923 days ago
Score 1+-
Yet again, Montana had a Dynasty. Those guys were expected to win year in and year out. The Phins had a dynasty. The Packers had a dynasty. The Steelers are the only ones with 4 straight in football. You're totally wrong Tyrone
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score -2+-
Dynasties are cheapened by excluding the consecutive factor. Never losing a game that a team had to win over the mark of 4 years is pretty damn inclusive company. Just because teams go through a phase of winning a few stretched out over a period of time is NOT a dynasty. The 49ers were not a dynasty. Neither were the Packers. The Steelers were and remain the only NFL football team to meet that criteria. It is same stupid argument over "grand slams" whether it "counts" in 2 separate rolling seasons or does it have to be "all in one". Of course it has to be in the same season. Grand slams are supposed to tough to earn. As are "Dynasties". Too often overanxious fans label teams "as this" or "that" simply because it feels right to do so. Stop cheapening terms.
Permalink
Taytay 24All-American
923 days ago
Score 1+-
If you insist on four in a row, Tyrone, then I don't need your dynasty. The early '90s Cowboys don't qualify, but I'll take them against ANYBODY in NFL history.
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
923 days ago
Score 3+-
Dude, are you saying that the Jordan-led 90's Bulls (who never won four in a row) weren't a dynasty?
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
923 days ago
Score 1+-
Nope, Cowboys sucked...Eagles defense killed them...Reggie White, Clyde Simmons, should i go on? Alright, in all seriousness, you wanna know how good the Cowboys were: They had to face the greatest defensive team twice a year (sorry bears fans, you're welcome to disagree) AND from 1989 to 1995 the eagles record was 67-45 going 11-5 twice, 10-6 three times, 8-8 once, and 7-9 once (we call this the kotite era)...and do you know how many division titles they won? 0...they won no division titles...that's unfathomable...
Permalink
StumptownJV Squad
923 days ago
Score 3+-
I think you have to be ready to modify the specific qualifications depending on the sport. Football for example doesn't allow for teams to stay intact for longer periods of time because of injuries, short career lengths and the structure of salries and contracts. So, I think you can legitimately shorten the length of dominance required to be a dynasty. Also, I think simply choosing a number of consecutive titles is a bit arbitrary and somewhat misses the point in defining the term. I think in sports it is a team that is "the team to beat" or the team "expected to win" for an extended period of time. I don't think the Pats qualify. they have been an amazing franchise for the last few years, but haven't truly dominated the way the Niners did in the 80s and 90s or even the way the Cowboys did. For a good stretch under Montana every year the Niners didn't win a title it was an upset. I'm ok calling them a dynasty.
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score -1+-
Yeah, I'm saying the Bulls were not a dynasty because they did not win 4 consecutive championships. To reward teams for NOT winning consecutively in this manner is a dishonoring teams that did in fact stick together over that time period and WIN.
Permalink
False ProphetAll-Star
923 days ago
Score -1+-
You're an Idiot Tyrone...You refuse to accept 2 of sports greatest dynasties in MJ's Bulls and Montana's 49ers.

Montana won 4 SB rings in his SF tenure (2 consecutive), 9 division championships, and 4 conference championships.

Especially comming from a Chicago resident, I'm suprised to hear you question the Bulls Dynasty. They probably would have won 3+ more championships if MJ didn't go to play baseball.
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score -1+-
It is just an opinion. And no different than an asshole, everyone has one. That includes you twerp.
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score -1+-
What idiot made you an Admin anyways?
Permalink
False ProphetAll-Star
923 days ago
Score 0+-
This one...
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score 1+-
"Probably" means nothing. It is absolute meaningless. And by tossing around the term "dynasty" towards organizations for winning sustained non-consecutive championships cheapens the word to a junk term cliche tossed around by homer fans and talking heads (such as the idiots that comprise ATH). Dynasty is to imply sustained excellence - the best of the best over a very extended period of time. Some argue 3 consecutive titles, others 4. Yeah, that is pretty slim and exclusive company but then again so is the term "Dynasty". Historically the term is to represent 100s of years of superiority such as the "Ming Dynasty". It does not mean "close enough". It does not mean "coming up short one year because yadyayadayeah..." It means undeniable superiority without peers season after season after season after season (when applied to sports). Now use your head False Prophet, I am not saying the Montana years or the Jordan years were not spectacular. Those were indeed great teams but in terms of single seasons. But circumstances did not allow either of these organizations to put together a string of at least 4 consecutive championships which for me represents a Dynasty. To me, not everybody in the classroom deserves an A for effort nor do I believe everyone that participates deserves a trophy. To me, Dynasty = 4 consecutive championships. That is MY opinion.
Permalink
False ProphetAll-Star
923 days ago
Score -2+-
then who qualifies as a Dynasty? Steelers didn't win 4 consecutive. No NBA team has won 4 consecutive. So I guess, as far as I can see, the only Dynasty in your Mind, according to your rules, are the Yankees, who've done it a couple of times. Is this true?
Permalink
PeanMajor Leaguer
923 days ago
Score 3+-
are you serious? didn't the celtics win 8?
Permalink
False ProphetAll-Star
923 days ago
Score -2+-
but not 4 straight like tyrone says
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score 1+-
FP, you are an idiot. The Celtics won 8 in a row. Teams that have won at least 4 in a row include the Celtics (NBA), Yankees (MLB), Canadiens (NHL, and Islanders (NHL). If anyone else knows of more "4 peats", let me know.
Permalink
False ProphetAll-Star
923 days ago
Score 2+-
sorry, the wikipedia page on the NBA Finals is shit and impossible to follow. I did not see that the celtics won 8 straight
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
923 days ago
Score 0+-
Agreed. The Wik page does suck. Try the NBA's: http://www.n...ampions.html
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
923 days ago
Score 2+-
Here's a point I heard last nite. Dynasty teams have a fear factor, meaning even good teams had the expectation of losing when they played. The Knicks, Lakers, Pistons all felt when the played the Bulls they would lose. Chamberlain's 76er or Warrior teams were great teams in their own right, but expected to lose to the Celtics. These teams are dynasties. There is no fear factor with the Spurs. Are they a good team? Yes. Are the other teams in the league afraid to play them? No. Shoot, the 76er teams of the late '70's early '80's that kept losing to the Magic Lakers or Larry Celtics only won one title in six or seven years, but those teams would have taken Tim Dunan and wiped the floor with him. There have been better teams lose more than the Spurs won.
Permalink | Reply
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
922 days ago
Score 0+-
IMO - A true "Dynasty" always ends the last game of the year as a victor. No excuses. No "almosts", "ifs", "ands" or "buts" excuses. I say it takes 4 years, others say 3, others say something completely different. To each his/her own.
Permalink
DRE-LOAAA-er
922 days ago
Score 1+-
This team is a dynasty. I don't believe a requirement of a dynasty is to repeat but to have consistent success over a long period. With San Antonio notching over .700 winning percentage with the Western Conference as competitive as it has been over the past decade is outstanding. Let's be honest. In this past decade, it was almost a foregone conclusion that the Spurs were championship contenders every year since 1999. 4 championships in a period of 9 years and being the winningest team in this decade certainly qualifies the Spurs as a dynasty. Not to mention that the Spurs have had 35 different players on their championship teams. No matter each player's style, ability or substance, the Spurs made them fit in their winning formula especially with the common denominator, Tim Duncan.
Permalink | Reply
Yakob878MVP
866 days ago
Score 0+-
you said it
Permalink | Reply
Add your Comment
ArmchairGM welcomes all comments. If you don't want to be anonymous, Register or Login. It's free


Retrieved from "http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Dynasty%3F...Puhlease%21"

This page was last modified 11:26, 15 June 2007. Content is available under the GFDL.

Contribute

ArmchairGM's pages can be edited.
Is this page incomplete? Is there anything wrong?
Change it!

Edit this page Discuss this page Page history

Recent contributors to this page

The following people recently contributed to this article.

Embed this on your site

Main Page About Special Pages Help Terms of Use Advertise