armchairgm
all sports, all you
+ Add Friends
You are not logged-in.
Sign Up - Log In
Main Page
Sports
Write
Articles
Hot Links
Images
Meet People
Fun
Explore
MLB - NFL - NBA - NHL - College Basketball - College Football - Soccer - Nascar - Other
Article - Locker Room Discussion
All Articles - New Articles - Today's Articles
Submit a Link - Approve Links
Picture Game - Ratings - Polls - Pick Game - Quiz Game - Spring Silliness
Random Page - Random Image - Random Fan
Edit
Page history Discuss pageWhat links here

Does Rice belong in the Hall?

18
Vote

by user Bmoseley07

In 12 days, Red Sox Nation will find out if Jim Rice, among the greats of Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken Jr. and Mark McGwire*, deserves to be mentioned in the same building with the likes of Babe Ruth, Cy Young and Ted Williams.

The Boston Globe has been pushing voters for Rice. Actually, more like shoving, knocking down writers for not voting the Boston slugger in.

     
  "If there is truly justice, when the balloting closes Dec. 31, there will be enough voters who have checked off his name, as this voter has for the last 13 years."  

And as a Sox fan, I'm supposed to want to see Rice get the votes and be inducted while donning the most sacred cap in the country, but does a great player who put up some great numbers and served the Boston public for his entire career deserve a Hall of Fame plaque?

The key word in that sentence is some. He only put up some great numbers and only in some years.

Sure, Rice hit 382 home runs, which is good for 52nd on the all-time list, subsequently above Orlando Cepeda and Tony Perez, both of which sit a few places back with 379 a piece and both of which somehow got enough votes to reach the Hall. This is true, but the thing is, they don't deserve to be there either.

When I think of Hall of Famer's, I think of the top of the crop. Names like Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Cy Young, Nolan Ryan, and Mickey Mantle. These are players that made opponents want to hide in a corner when their name was merely mentioned. They are names that 25 years later, everybody still remembers, not just every fan of his team.

When you look at Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle's stat sheets and then you go back and look at Rice's, it's like watching Jessica Alba and Carmen Electra on the tv, and then taking a peek back at your wife. I mean, sure, she'd be in your hall of fame but would she be in the world's hall of fame? Unless you're Johnny Damon or Daisuke Matsuzaka, then probably not.

Jim Rice definitely was a great hitter and proved that by going to the all-star game 8 times and winning an MVP along with a couple of Silver Sluggers. Nobody can take that away from him.

But just like your girlfriend with the nose a little too bird-like or ears a little too Dumbo-like, Rice had his imperfections too. There were a few years in the middle of his career (1980-1982) where he wasn't the best or even close to the top slugger in the league. Combine that with the fact that his peak years ended when he was 33 and you have a guy who was HOF-esque some of the time, but not all the time and certainly not for a long enough time.

Now of course, it is somewhat difficult to say whether he should be in the hall or not just by looking at his numbers, because numbers from 20 years ago have a different meaning than today, so eliminating that aspect of the process, the criteria is going to be based on the sheer number of awards they won or nearly won over their career.

Point in case is Cal Ripken Jr. When you take a look at his trophy case, which probably occupies half the guy's house, you see that he was a 19-time All-star, a 2-time MVP award winner, and an 8-time Silver Slugger. Those are numbers that speak for themselves and don't need to be put into a different context. An all-star is an all-star, regardless the year; same for an MVP being an MVP and a Silver Slugger being a Silver Slugger no matter the year. Those benchmarks are clear for any era.

Voters are forgetting some key criteria when voting for Rice. Those criteria are longevity and consistency. Greatness is obviously an important attribute and will be the main one to evaluate players with, but anybody can have a great year (e.g. Brady Anderson, 1996). But to be able to succeed at this game over decades; now that takes talent. The kind of talent that should only be reserved for the Hall of Fame.

This year, Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn are on the ballot. Many are griping that those players will keep voters from giving Rice his due, but in actuality, these players will just make voters remember the criteria and re-evaluate whether or not the few good seasons from Rice warrants a plaque to sit beside the plaque's of two players that defined their era and will be remembered for lifetimes, Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn.

Postscript: Baseball Reference is the best place to view the player stats and awards. I was too lazy to put in each player's link, but you can search for them on the site or head over to my blog for the linked version.

'For more from this author head over to: Here's to Next Year'

Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
KelsdadAll-Star
1065 days ago
Score 1+-
As a "Connecticut Yankee", who could only get Red Sox games on the tube in the pre-cable days, I say yes. Spent some time as a DH, but more games in the field count as an all round player. Actually made himself into a pretty good outfielder. I've been watching baseball close to 40 years and Rice is in the top 5 right handed hitters I've ever seen. Look at his other numbers, seasons over 200 hits, K totals not bad for a power hitter, double digit seasons in doubles, triples and homers. The Green Monster would piss itself when Rice came up. And anyone who could shatter a bat on a check swing, without contact, is THE MAN in my book. Gets my vote, every year.
Permalink | Reply
I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1064 days ago
Score -6+-
Never heard of him.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1064 days ago
Score 1+-
wow.
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
1064 days ago
Score 2+-
I sincerely hope you're kidding, CP.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1064 days ago
Score 2+-
Come on, he's Jerry Rice's older brother!
Permalink
JoebookRed-Shirting
1064 days ago
Score 1+-
Condi's brother...
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1064 days ago
Score 1+-
Sam's grandson?
Permalink
I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1063 days ago
Score -1+-
I've seriously never heard of him.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1064 days ago
Score 0+-
I say you can't put him in. Was he feared? Yes. Did he mash? Yes. Hit for average? Pretty much. Decent outfielder? Sure.

But...

Once you let Jim Rice in, you open the floodgates. Dale Murphy (who should already be in), Albert Belle, Harold Baines, Richie Allen, Fred McGriff, Rafael Palmiero, Todd Helton, on and on...

He was pretty good, but he wasn't great. Other guys had better numbers, better primes and longer careers. Rice could hit the ball as hard as anyone, but so could Ted Kluszewski (with a MUCH better batting eye)...
Permalink | Reply
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1064 days ago
Score 0+-
But if that opens the gates, why didn't they open to let in Gil Hodges when Tony Perez was selected?
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
1064 days ago
Score 3+-
Why shouldn't those floodgates be opened, though? Palmeiro (ignoring 'roids), Murphy, and Dick Allen were legitimately great, Baines and McGriff were very good for a sustained period of time. Belle had a handful of truly dominant seasons in the mid-90's, but he and Helton don't meet the standards. But look at Rice -- 89.2 career WARP3, he passes three of Bill James' HOF tests (Black Ink, Gray Ink, HOF Monitor), .298/.352/.502 career line... If Dave Winfield and Robin Yount are in, Rice deserves to be in Cooperstown as well.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1064 days ago
Score 1+-
Winfield and Yount had 3,000 hits, were both much better fielders (and athletes in general - 5 toolers) Winfield got rings and Yount had 2 MVPs (at 2 different positions). Rice was (mostly) a one trick pony (power) that he really wasn't even that dominant at (see: Tony Armas, Gorman Thomas and Dave Kingman - all sluggers of the same era)

My old theory was if you had to argue for the player with numbers and calculations, he's not HoF material. I remember him as a player. He was an All-Star, but NOT a HoFer.

Dale Murphy SHOULD be in already. McGriff got ripped.

If Rice played for any other city than Boston, he'd be gettting the Murphy/McGriff/Allen/Baines treatment. Although i think Joey Belle has a better argument than the rest of them (if not for his disdain for the media and inexcuseable off-field behavior/stalking)
Permalink | Reply
JoebookRed-Shirting
1064 days ago
Score 2+-
I suggest you all revisit my article on the HOF ballot -- http://armch..._Fame_Ballot
I think Rice deserves to be in based on today's standards.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1064 days ago
Score 0+-
JB, the self-promoion whore! (I love it!) Ripken, Gwynn and Gossage this year and next year is Jim's last on the ballot. With all of the wondrous and generous interviews he's given, do you REALLY think baseball writers will put him in? (HAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!) He didn't exactly make a ton of friends on the veteran's Comittee either... Bert Blyleven goes before Rice, for sure!
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #1
1064 days ago
Score 0+-
A good buddy (who's also a registered user on this site) emailed me earlier today and said he agreed with my points above on Rice. He also stated he couldn't make an argument either way because he never saw Rice play. Reading some of the nonsense here (Fred McGriff?), most of the responders on this category never saw him play either.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
1064 days ago
Score 0+-
The above post is mine. Damn log-outs!
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1064 days ago
Score 2+-
I saw Rice play (not in person) and I remember when he broke the world record for driving a golfball on an airport tarmac. He was a masher. So what? He also hit into a million double plays, and compares similarly to ANDRES GALARRAGA, ELLIS BURKS and Joe Carter!!!

Again, if it can be argued either way, HOW can you be a HoFer?

and YES Fred McGriff (led BOTH leagues in HRs when 30 Hrs were still something special) although I keep forgetting that he still has a few years til eligibility. 493hrs - that's Lou Gehrig air....
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1064 days ago
Score 0+-
Gee, Rice was an a-hole to the media, and he's not going to the Hall... funny how that works, eh?
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
1064 days ago
Score 0+-
Which is why there is a Veteran's Committee, to make up for no-nothing sports writers. And did you intentionally leave Willie Stargell, Billy Williams, Duke Snider and Orlando Cepeda off your "compares favorably" list just to make your point? Rice played 16 seasons and McGriff 19, based on 162 game averages Rice beats him in most every category. Maybe you're right Manny, if Rice isn't in by now then he shouldnt be but he was also a far better player than McGriff.
Permalink | Reply
Davis21wylieMVP
1064 days ago
Score 1+-
McGriff         PA  Outs  RC  RC/27 WARP3   BA *lgBA   OBP *lgOBP  SLG *lgSLG  OPS *lgOPS*OPS+  EqA   SB%
+--------------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+-----+----+
19 Seasons   10174  6604 1689  6.91 104.6| .284  .268| .377  .337| .509  .417| .886  .754| 134 .307   65%

Rice            PA  Outs  RC  RC/27 WARP3   BA *lgBA   OBP *lgOBP  SLG *lgSLG  OPS *lgOPS*OPS+  EqA   SB%
+--------------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+-----+----+
16 Seasons     9058 6221 1459  6.33  89.2| .298  .270| .352  .336| .502  .406| .854  .742| 128 .295   63%
Can't we just include both?
Permalink
Josh Q. PublicVarsity
1064 days ago
Score 0+-
i saw rice play about a billion times in person. in 1978 there wasn't a better beseball player. dave parker included. absolutely he belongs. i was at fenway once, rice hit a bomb over the flag pole in center. not for nothing jum rice holds the record for longest drive off of a tee
Permalink | Reply
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
1064 days ago
Score 1+-
It's quite simple. If only the best were Hall of Famers, Mazeroski, Carter, Maranville, Perez, Fisk, and quite a few others would not be there. But they ARE there, which means Rice and Hodges belong.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
1064 days ago
Score 0+-
And you can add Dizzy Dean to that list..possibly the worst Hall of Famer.
Permalink | Reply
Bmoseley07Soccer Kid
1064 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm glad you brought Dean up. Great example of a guy who was the best pitcher in the league in his time, but only was in his time. Take a look: http://www.b...andi01.shtml He led the league in everything pretty much in the 6 years he played. He won an MVP award and was 2nd in MVP voting two years in a row. If you don't think he should be in, then Rice shouldn't be in either. Dean clearly was a feared by everybody in the 6 years he played, but that's the thing, it was only 6 years. Okay, I know this is going to bring up Sandy Koufax but the thing you guys have to remember is that Rice played a limited amount of time that he was great for and okay, he was feared, but striking fear in somebody doesn't always translate into numbers. If he done better in his prime years (1980-1982) then I think there would be a much stronger case for him.
Permalink
The sharkDraft Pick
1008 days ago
Score 0+-
In. Template:Rice in Hall Fans
Permalink | Reply
Add your Comment
ArmchairGM welcomes all comments. If you don't want to be anonymous, Register or Login. It's free


Retrieved from "http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Does_Rice_belong_in_the_Hall%3F"

This page was last modified 13:02, 29 December 2006. Content is available under the GFDL.

Contribute

ArmchairGM's pages can be edited.
Is this page incomplete? Is there anything wrong?
Change it!

Edit this page Discuss this page Page history

Recent contributors to this page

The following people recently contributed to this article.

Embed this on your site

Main Page About Special Pages Help Terms of Use Advertise