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Big Papi Overrated?

17
Vote

by user Dukeboy999

This question came to me while hearing David Ortiz called one of the best players in baseball on the radio. Let me tell you why this guy is not really that great.

Between 2000 and 2002 David Ortiz hit only 48 home runs combined over that three year stretch. Over those three years he hit .282, .234, .272. The most RBI's he ever had with the twins was 75.

For now lets concentrate on why he is only a good hitter and not a great hitter. This is his 10th major league season and he still has only 218 major league home runs.

That's only an average of 21.8. Second, he hits in front of Manny Ramirez, one of the best hitters in the game. I could hit 10 or 15 home runs if I saw that many good pitches.

Also, when Ortiz comes to the plate there is no one left on the left side of the infield. All he would have to do is hit it the other way every other time up and be hitting .500.

Now don't say that he is the most clutch player in baseball either. Somehow it seems to work out that every single time he comes up to the plate in the 9th inning there are at least two guys on base.

Given that many opportunites, anyone could hit a few walk off homers. And thats just the downsides to his hitting. If the have to play in a national league park in the world series, he can't play the field. He is a liability at first. Or what happnes if he leads off the bottom of the ninth in a tie game. They walk him to get to Manny. Manny could triple to the gap and Ortiz still would not score because he is so slow.

Now I'm not saying that Ortiz isn't a great guy because he is. But given the same situation Vladimir Guerrero or even Jason Bay could do just as well if not better.

David Ortiz is a great player, but not top 15 in baseball. He doesn't go from solid player to superstar overnight, without a ton of things helping him along. There is a reason he wasn't as good with the Twins. He didn't have the best hitter of his era hitting behind him. And he didn't have the short porch in right to hit fly balls out all day.

Point is he is very good at best, but David Ortiz is no superstar.


Date

Thu 08/10/06, 11:45 am EST


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1208 days ago
Score 0+-
I haven't agreed* with a lot you've written so far, but I completely agree with this.

Just to clarify, that's nothing personal about you or your writing, we just have some differences in opinon.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
1208 days ago
Score 0+-
Dont worry I wont take it personally. I love people with different opinions, it gives us something to talk about.
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I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1208 days ago
Score 3+-
That good, considering you have "Duke" in your username, we could end up disagreeing a lot :-)
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Dukeboy999Varsity Captain
1208 days ago
Score -1+-
Maybe :)
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JoebookRed-Shirting
1208 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree... this is a well written article. Ortiz is clearly a beneficiary of hitting in front of Manny (Ramirez, although Stiles is also an imposing figure) and can't play defense. He's a great face for the game, regardless of his situation.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1208 days ago
Score 0+-
I couldn't hit after Papi, they'd bring a lefty in to get him, and as a lefthanded batter, I can't hit lefties for crap... so for now, they're better off with Ramirez (however, I might be a better LF/1b than both of them)

Ortiz clearly measures up in HRs, OPS, impending MVP trophies, and O!F...

Nice article by John Schneider/Tom Wopat, here +
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JoebookRed-Shirting
1208 days ago
Score 0+-
What about the schlocks that played Vance and Coy during Bo and Luke's contract holdout?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1208 days ago
Score 4+-
How could one NOT love having Big Papi as a teammate? Does anyone (besides Yankees fans/asylum patients) NOT like this guy? I will always remember him as Cookie Monster, not Papi
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1208 days ago
Score -1+-
come on, JB! Vance and Coy never happened...
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DNLLegend
1208 days ago
Score 3+-
Right now, he's one of the best players out there. But a lot of players have two to five year periods of superlative play -- only to fall well short of the Hall. (See Maris, Roger). I think Papi is one of these guys.
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ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1207 days ago
Score -1+-
Nice comment DNL and my sentiments exactly. He's having a great run so far, but 2 or 3 years do not make him a HOFer.
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ASwaffAll-American
1208 days ago
Score 6+-
Well, you say that he's benefitted from hitting in front of Manny, and that he benefits from having players on base, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he's getting those hits. He's not getting intentionally walked because he has Manny behind him, but that still doesn't mean that pitchers are coming up and chucking him meatballs. And I'll agree that some people looking to find the next great player are overrating him, but you can't hold earlier seasons against him. There have been plenty of good hitters that have been late bloomers. Just because he wasn't one of the best in the game then doesn't mean he's not one of the best in the game now.


As for him being the most clutch hitter in the game, I'll agree that you have a point. But I think that people base it not just on his performance this season, but in his career. The number of walk-off homers he's had is unbelievable. And there are players that have better late-inning numbers than Ortiz, but he has come through in some awfully big games (unlike, say, Carlos Lee for the Brewers, Ken Griffey Jr of the Reds, or Esteban German of the Royals, all of whom have better late-inning numbers than Papi). You might not like it, but the stage does weigh into things like this.
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XinophDraft Pick
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
<sigh> Another articlce that "X Red Sox Player Isn't Really So Great." Seriously, get over it. Manny and Papi have bother benefited from having each other in the lineup. So what? Every good player on a good team benefits from having other good players as teammates.

And, oh wait, what's the difference between "very good" and "superstar"? Come on, those are purely subjective terms. Give me a break. For now, Mr. I-Hate-Apostrophes, remember that Ortiz did play first base in a National League ballpark in the World Series, and he had not a single error in either of those games, which Boston won by a combined score of 7-1. Oh wait, look, you're wrong about another thing. Tons of Ortiz's walkoff hits (yes, amazingly enough, despite what you might think, they're not all home runs; if you ever watched a Red Sox game, you might understand that) have come with less than two players on, or no players on.

Oh hey look, he's not really all that bad a fielder as everyone thinks, either. Not including this year, in 221 games at first base he has 18 errors. That averages out to about an error every 12 games, which means that in a 162-game season he'd probably have 14 or 15 errors - less than half as many as Edgar Renteria had last season. Ortiz could play first base and he wouldn't be all that bad; he wouldn't be great, but he wouldn't be the disaster that people think he'd be, either. It's just that hey, it's the AL, the team has money, so they put him at DH and a better fielder at first. Surprise, surprise.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
Manny & Papi are the Manny & Xinoph of the Red Sox. "Manny being Manny"; unfortunately Papi talks with a bat, not a keyboard...but Papi & X always come up BIG late in the game!
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ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
You can't through Renteria from last year in there. He was just plain horrible. Too easy of a target. I expected more from you X.
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TartanVarsity Captain
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
How do you have a last inning walk-off hit that isn't a homerun with no one on base? I'm perplexed. And of course he hasn't seen a Red Sox game. If you don't live in the immediate Boston area, you never see them on national television.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
1207 days ago
Score -3+-
BIG PAPI is a great teammate Im sure. But Im just saying hes overrated as an individual player.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
Great teammates always end up contributing to great teams... it's an individual trait that matters more than stupid numbers (numbers only tell you what you want to see)
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BigPPupMajor Leaguer
1207 days ago
Score -1+-
Great piece glad this is finally being brought to the surface for people ot face.
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I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
Although some (looks up a few comments) will remain in a state of smug denial.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
extra plus+++
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Anonymous Fanatic #2
1207 days ago
Score -1+-
This article is trash. Ortiz is npt overraeted. If anything, he's underrated. To compare him to Jason Bay is a joke. And you seem to forget that last year, Manny batted before Manny, not after. For three straight years now, Ortiz has put up numbers in the range of .300, 40+, and 140. How the hell can that be overrated? No one else in baseball has done that! Mark Teixeira is overrated. Adam Dunn is overrated. David Ortiz is developing into one of the best hitters in baseball. Just because you don't like someone is no reason to belittle his talent and value. David Ortiz? Underrated - MVP.
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Anonymous Fanatic #2
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
I meant Manny batted before Ortiz, not after.
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Dukeboy999Varsity Captain
1207 days ago
Score 3+-
How can you be developing as a hitter when you are about to turn 31? His best years are behind him. Explain why in his prime he was doing almost nothing in Minnesota. Jason Bay is a much better overall player. Last year he was one of two players in all of baseball to hit over .300, hit 30 home runs, steal 20 bases, score 100 runs, and have 100 RBIs. The other was Alex Rodriguez, how can Ortiz be better all around than that? Has he ever stolen more than 2 bases a year? Plus Bay has minor leaguers hitting around him in the lineup. With Manny Bay would have been top 3 for MVP last year. No contest.
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Anonymous Fanatic #3
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
So, when you say he's only hit 218 homeruns in 10 seasons, you don't take in to consideration that he never started and played a full season with the twins? His most RBI's in one season with the twins was 75 because he didn't even play....... Now you're getting to see what kind of hitter he is now that he gets to play nearly everyday. If Ortiz had played everyday with the Twins, or gotten more time than he did you would've seen the numbers go up in every category. Also, how do you say that the MLB leader of homeruns and RBI's is a good hitter but not a great hitter? How does that work?
Permalink | Reply
Anonymous Fanatic #2
1207 days ago
Score -1+-
That's why this article is TRASH. The author obviously dislikes Ortiz (or the team on which he plays) and uses that motivation to write some garbage article about how one of five the best hitters in MLB over the last three years is overrated. Rubbish! It's the same thing people do to A-Rod. So Jason Bay can steal 20 bases. Ooooh he must be a great player. As a hitter, he couldn't carry Papi's bat bag.
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Anonymous Fanatic #3
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
Also, a big reason why he's talked about so much is because he is a great hitter and and even better person. You rarely see a hitter of Ortiz's caliber hitting the way he does always laughing or with a smile on his face.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
1207 days ago
Score 5+-
Ortiz played 15 games in 1997 and 10 in 1999, yet you count them as full years? If you use his 162 game average, it comes up with 35 HRs per season and 119 RBIs, not bad. Ortiz may be the best hitter in the AL, along with Manny, Thome and Hafner. His lack of a defensive position hurts his overall value, but he is still a Top 5 player in the AL, if not MLB.
Permalink | Reply
ChachiOSUDraft Pick
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
My only problem with your comment is that you only listed the big power hitters as the best hitters in the AL. Ichiro may be the best hitter and you could make a case for players like Jeter and Mauer.
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Rachafella592001Little Leaguer
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
Completely agree with you, that's what I was trying to say as well.. ^ AF #3
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Dukeboy999Varsity Captain
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
True with Jeter Ichiro and Mauer, great point. I DIDNT COUNT 1997 TROUGH 1999. If you read the article you would see I counted 2000-2002 for his Minnesota stats.
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I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
Since you're new to the site, I'll clue you in that a lot of people on here don't read entire articles especially when they disagree. There's a strong tendency to go in to defense mode right away and start typing away with non-relevant comments that supposedly prove your wrong. There can also be a big of name calling. Usually this comes from someone that doesn't have the guts to stand up behind what they say so they log out first (see AF 2&3 here). So, just letting you know, you'll get used to it after awhile.
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I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
And it way too early for me not to be rereading my comments before posting them...
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Bball3345Draft Pick
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
Actually Dukeboy, try reading your own article a little better. You said he has 218 CAREER home runs for an average of 21.8 per season. So, yes, you did count those seasons. Any response to that?
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The sharkDraft Pick
1206 days ago
Score 0+-
He only had over 400 at bats ONCE in Minnesota! He never played consistently enough to be a full season. Stop hating!!!
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Jgov05All-American
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
Saying that Big Papi is only great because he hits in front of Manny Ramirez is like saying Babe Ruth was great only because he hit in front of Lpu Gehrig.
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Jgov05All-American
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
**Lou. Man, was that Lpu Gehrig great!
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TartanVarsity Captain
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
Comparisons between David Ortiz and Babe Ruth. Fans are reaching new levels of Big Papifatuation here.
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ASwaffAll-American
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
That wasn't a comparison to Ruth, it was just a point that a lot of great batters have hit in front of other great batters. It doesn't take anything away from their greatness. He could have said that about anyone. Bonds only hit 70 homeruns because he was batting in front of Jeff Kent, or Sosa was only great because he hit in front of Mark Grace, or Beltran has only been great because he's batted in front of Mark Sweeney, Lance Berkman and Carlos Delgado. You could make that excuse for just about any good hitter.
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TartanVarsity Captain
1207 days ago
Score 1+-
Point taken, however, some do excel without a backup. ARod in his MVP season for the Rangers, Ernie Banks, etc. There are many great hitters that prove it regardless of the supporting cast. Perhaps comparison was the wrong word though, analogy fits much better.
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I am a cpcpMajor Leaguer
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
Last time I checked a lot of people say that Bonds DID only hit 70 homeruns because he was batting in front of Jeff Kent. Well, that and the steroids...
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Dukeboy999Varsity Captain
1206 days ago
Score -1+-
Maybe it did help Lou. Lol
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Dukeboy999Varsity Captain
1207 days ago
Score -1+-
And even if you dont agree, a ton of people read the article which was the goal I had in mind. Thanks. Honestly thanks.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
Any response to what I posted above Dukeboy??? About not counting '97-99...
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Dukeboy999Varsity Captain
1207 days ago
Score -2+-
Exactly Bonds hit 70 because of Kent and Ortiz 50-55 because of Manny. You guys said steroids not me.
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Anonymous Fanatic #4
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
Yes Bball but only 48 between 2000 and 2002.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
1207 days ago
Score 0+-
Only 89 games in 2001...
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