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Manny Stiles
Sports is my crack. ArmchairGM is my pipe.

-mannystiles@aol.com

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Why a Rays - Phillies World Series Has Me Elated AND Torn

by Manny Stiles
created October 21, 2008, last edited June 04, 2009
13
Vote

Tampa Bay Rays vs. Philadelphia Phillies

As if merely being Manny Stiles isn't conflicting enough just by definition, here I am staring at what would seem to be the most interesting World Series in my life. And I am elated and torn.

There are no two professional sports teams that I have had a closer relationship in my life. I've been to more Phillies games than any other team in baseball. Hell, I've even seen them play on the road in four different away stadiums! In college (before I dropped out for personal and financial reasons) I had an internship with the Phillies lined up for my senior year. I had met many of the Phillies players over the years and had three different baseball coaches that were friends with several of the coaches and scouts in the organization - including John Vukovich, Ruben Amaro Jr., and Paul Owens among others - and got me personal instruction and tutelage during my pitching days. Plus, former Phillies Jeff Manto and Robbie Wine. were Temple U. alum that would come to work out with our squad in the fall and winter.

I've had a lot of pro baseball exposure thanks to the Phillies organization.

And with special thanks to being Matt Silverman's personal internet bitch for charity, there's no team's press box, dugout or locker room that I've spent more time in than Tampa Bay's. I certainly have met more players, management, beat reporters, employees and long-time fans of the Rays than any other professional sports organization. I even know the Rays' minor league players more than any other organization's. I mean, I still follow the exploits of players who aren't with the team since I started being their "fan for charity". I cannot express how awesome the experience I've had with the Rays has been!

And clearly I have been as good a fan as one could hope for for $1,535 dollars to charity!

So there's the history and knowledge of the Phillies I gained from living in and around Philly for 26 years and there's my two seasons of deep, emotional connection and deep, investigative knowledge I've obtained following the Rays.

There's so much for me to be torn about I almost want to go hide in a cave until it's over...

Let me break it down into a mere 26 points.

Exhibit A: Growing up as a small child in the Philadelphia suburbs, I was heavily fertilized in the realm of baseball with the soothing sound of Harry Kalas and the powder blue Phitin' Phils. One of my first and longest lasting sports memories is and forever will be the 1980 World Series. I distinctly remember being very sick and laying on my couch wrapped in blankets struggling to stay awake long enough to see the Phillies win. Tug McGraw struck out Willie Wilson, jumped into Bob Boone's arms and I rolled over, smiled and passed out for the next couple days.

But don't get me wrong - I have enjoyed the Phillies, cheered them on occasionally but NEVER would or could have called myself a Phillies "fan". They were just the team I happened to grow up geographically close to... I never had a favorite player that was a Phillie and always teased my friends growing up that they were brainwashed into being Phillies fans.

One thing I've always enjoyed about "Phillies Fans"... they KNOW the game and they are passionate about their sports knowledge. Phillies fans know their opponents almost as well as their home team. They know who to "boo" and when the right time to "boo" them will come.

Say what you will about "class" or "rudeness" or whatever term you want to lump Philly fans together - I know different - a.k.a. the truth - about Philly sports fans... the DON'T WANT TO BE Title-less ANY MORE!!! They are starving for the schneid to end. It will boost the morale and economy of the entire city to blow up a huge party down Broad St. so the misery can end.

Remember, Rocky Balboa might have been a loser for a long time but he went on to win the title... several times.


Exhibit B: Yeah, I'm that "Rays Fan/Blogger for Charity guy". Before 2007, I was simply a fan of the game and I had teams that I liked and teams I didn't like. Many of those teams stayed on the "non-love" side of the ledger (Yankees, Cardinals), others stayed on the "like, not love" side (Braves, Angels) while other teams flailed about my good graces seemingly every other year (Giants, Mariners, Padres).

I didn't root for logos I liked, I rooted for people I liked (players, management, etc.) and it seemed I always rooted for the underdog (So, yeah... I even spent a GOOD amount of time in the 80's and 90's rooting for the Red Sox).

But Philly and Tampa Bay??? Two downtrodden franchises with whom I have a past and current emotional ties?? This is unreal. This is how all of my Playstation-based baseball seasons turn out!

It always seemed I had a team to root against in the World Series - the 90's Yankees, the '88-'90 A's, the '07 Red Sox. Only one time I can recall that I was not clearly in favor of one team over the other... the '95 Series (Braves - Indians) and if not for my allegiances with the Rays - I WOULD have been all over the bandwagon this year anyway because I LOVE what they are doing and I would have been torn over who to root for in only the second World Series I can recall.


Exhibit C: Philly needs a championship. Partly so everyone can get over this "Curse of Billy Penn" nonsense and focus on what the REAL Curse was... "The Curse of Jim O'Brien". The über-popular weatherman at WPVI in Philadelphia, Jim O'Brien died on September 25, 1983 in a skydiving accident.

A statue of William Penn on top of City Hall (a beautiful and remarkable building in it's own right) does NOT care that someone built a building taller than him. Why? Because he was put on BACKWARDS to begin with! He was supposed to face south so his face would light up but they put him on facing north despite the blueprints. To say it has anything to do with a s heap of bronze is ludicrous. If it cared, the Phillies, Eagles, Flyers and Sixers would have NEVER won a championship!!!

But Jim O'Brien WAS Philadelphia! He was the city's most beloved man! And he died a hero, saving someone else's life.

If it's not Jim O'Brien, it's the USFL or the Blue Route or MOVE or anything logical besides architects bypassing "gentleman's agreement" to not build higher than William Penn in the City... to the point where they had to build the Comcast center just so they could weld a tiny William Penn on top of it? Wouldn't that piss off the original statue MORE??? It's stupid and for EVERYONE's sake - it needs to end.

Why not the "Curse of Manny Stiles"? After all, the first Pro Sports game I ever saw in Philadelphia was in the 1983 NLCS in October 1983... No team in Philly has won a title since!

If anything - THIS was the decade to end a "curse" for several teams - the Diamondbacks (1st Pro Sports Title in Arizona), Angels (Anaheim Stadium built on Indian Burial grounds), Red Sox (Bambino), and White Sox (Black Sox).


Exhibit D: The Buccaneers and Lightning. People think the Rays are either the '69 Mets or the '07 Rockies or the 1888 Louisville Colonels... Guess what? They're the Tampa Bay Rays... let them be who they are without having to convolute the past to make things lazier for everyone. It's ok the Rays are doing they're own thing - every day it's something that has happened "For the First Time Ever" - all season has been like that!

But get a grip with history: this "expansion team with losing tradition turning into a winner" thing has been done before RIGHT THERE IN TAMPA BAY! Twice!

The Buccaneers were doormats/punchlines/sadsacks of the NFL for nearly three decades. They changed their colors, changed their attitudes and bingo! Won a Super Bowl with fundamentals. From 1976 to 1996 they had THREE seasons with more than 6 wins!

The Lightning went to the playoffs ONE time in their first ten years of existence and 11 years before winning a playoff series. In hockey, that's damned near impossible! In their 12th year, they won a Stanley Cup.


Exhibit E: Much like the last World Series I didn't have a clear rooting interest - 1995 Braves - Indians, the TV ratings are going to suck. And it's a shame. People are SO mindfacked these days that all anyone needs to be successful in the mediasphere is to be popular. Popularity breeds success on TV and entertainment. Not talent, not skill, not the two BEST TEAMS... everyone was rooting for Goliath again. they wanted the familiar the comfortable and now they're ALL bitching that this isn't the story they wanted.

Media members that bitch about this - or any title matchup are FOOLS. THESE ARE the two BEST teams. They've proven they belong here and they were meant to be here - no one else!

To the masses: Get over your irrational fears! Step out of your comfort zone and enjoy a battle of the two finest teams in baseball. The Rays are going to be around for many years to come and the Phillies very well may be back again soon. Get USED to these teams!!!


Exhibit F: Phillies Red vs. Rays Blue. How fitting, in an election year... Red vs. Blue and both Pennsylvania and Florida are "battleground" states. Anyone else find it disturbing that our political pundits view some of our UNITED states as "battleground" states???


Exhibit G: I'm not going to break down each position and compare the players like I did for the ALCS - for one simple reason: The numbers are skewed. The Phillies play in a bandbox in the BL and the Rays play in a dome in the AL. None of the numbers will correlate to make sensible arguments that are clear.

For instance: Carlos Pena's power might actually be superior to Ryan Howard's in reality because Pena missed time and played with a broken hand (diminishing his numbers) and didn't play in one of the easiest parks (I don't care what the numbers say, listen to the PLAYERS talk about the fields) in baseball in which to go yard. Pena is miles above Howard with the glove...

And don't get me started on the pitching differences or the people who want to say Shane Victorino is just as good a centerfielder as B.J. Upton... sorry.

Anyway, the Rays broke an AL record for most Home Runs in a playoff series against the Red Sox pitching staff with three games at Fenway - where it's tougher to hit HRs than most parks! What are they going to do with the Phillies pitchers in one of the smallest parks to hit HRs???


Exhibit H: Two baseball lifer managers in Joe Maddon and Charlie Manuel that are very upbeat and likeable in their own respects. Good for them, they both deserve more credit.


Exhibit I: Season Attendance...

One thing that will keep getting regurgitated is Tampa Bay's attendance figures. The Phillies averaged nearly 20,000 more attendees per home game than the Rays did this season. The Phillies averaged less than 3,000 fans more than the Rays for road games.

Clearly (to me at least), people don't understand the demographic difficulties the Rays face. It has less to do with a "tradition of sucking" than it does with fan support getting derailed by something as basic as "Location, Location, Location". The stadium is in a bad place for residents of Tampa to travel. It's detached from the metropolitan area by water and bridges. It has little to do with the stadium or the team's performance and much more to do with inconvenience.

People will still overlook the fact that attendance AND record has improved each year since Joe Maddon was hired.

The stadium might be unique but it's a great playing surface - not like traditional "astroturf" - and the accommodations are better than the older stadiums and even more amenable in it's inner workings than some of the newer parks (I'm looking at you, Chase Field).

And DON'T be confused!!! Tampa has a RICH baseball history that goes back LONG before the Rays. Spring training started in Tampa. The Yankees have long dominated the area with their offices and players living there. The area has been littered with all-time greats spending their offseasons and post-careers in the area (Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio for instance) and many prominent major leaguers grew up in the Tampa area (Wade Boggs, Fred McGriff, Gary Sheffield, Dwight Gooden, Steve Garvey, Al Lopez, Tino Martinez and Luis Gonzalez)


Exhibit J: Eagles vs. Buccaneers, Flyers vs. Lightning... there's no love lost between these two sports-loving cities at all.

Although, oddly enough you can get Yuengling Lager in these two Major League parks and no others!!!

1829 This user is a lifelong fan of Yuengling, America's Oldest brewery.

It's the "Yuengling Series"!!!



Exhibit K: My best friend growing up has Phillies season tickets and has been keeping me up to date on lots of those "little things" and I have seen the Phillies play as much as any NL team that doesn't play here in Phoenix. Of course, I've also been keeping my buddy updated on the Rays all season, too.

My wife and kids also adopted the Phillies as their favorite NL team a few years ago when wifey got a Phillies hat. But they are all still primarily Rays fans.

Unfortunately, I am unable to fly to Philly OR Tampa this year... which just plain sucks for me but at least I'll get to share this special World Series with my family.


Exhibit L: So much for the Phillies' "Curse of the Blue Hats"... when they first re-introduced the blue lids as a Sunday home game "thing", the team reeked profusely and the players said those hats were cursed. Meanwhile, in breaking news, the Rays dropped the whole "Devil" thing and switched to Blue hats.


Exhibit M: Harry and Todd Kalas.

Harry is the voice of the Phillies and is simply the best announcing voice in the history of the art form - No, you can't argue this with me. He took the torch from John Facenda as the voice of NFL films and to hear Harry's voice on the radio or TV during Phillies games in the summers of my youth helped instill the love of baseball I have today.

Todd is Harry's son, works for the Rays TV and radio coverage and is perhaps the ONLY son of a legendary broadcaster that also became a broadcaster that doesn't suck. Todd is witty, insightful, pleasant and damn it - he was just simply cool with me personally and to my kids. He is genuine and definitely loves and respects the game as much as anyone.


Exhibit N: The Rays can't win 3 championships in a row if they don't win the first one first.


Exhibit O: Remember the All-Star game? The game that a Rays player got the victory (Scott Kazmir) and a Phillies player blew his only save all season (Brad Lidge).

Now the Rays have home field advantage.


Exhibit P: Rays' clichés... Catwalks, "First time in Franchise history", "9=8", and the opening of the "blue seats", rays tank (they're cownose rays, not manta), Joe Maddon from Hazleton, PA...


Exhibit Q: Phillies' clichés... One title in franchise history, bandbox, cheesesteaks, Curse of Billy Penn, 3 MVP-type players, Charlie Manuel's Mom passing away, Snowballs at Santa Claus, "Boobirds", "Blue Collar town".

Want a fun drinking game? Every time Tim McCarver (or any other talking bobblehead) says any of those clichés, take a drink!!!


Exhibit R: Every year from 2001 until last year, I picked the Phillies to go to the World Series. For the last two seasons, I've picked the Rays to win the World Series... something HAS to give...


Exhibit S: I really won't mind if the Phillies win. I will LOVE it if the Rays win! I really won't mind if the Rays or Phillies lose.


Exhibit T: Although the two teams haven't played each since 2006 - and that was for the first time since 2001 - the Rays and Phillies have met in interleague play a mere 15 times. The Rays are 10-5 in those games and have won 4 of the 5 series including a sweep in 2001. 4-2 in St. Pete and 6-3 in Philly. Go figure... James Shields and Scott Kazmir have both won games in Philadelphia. The Rays are 7-2 against the Phillies since Y2K.


Exhibit U: Clearwater, Florida. The long-time Spring Training sit of the Phillies is minutes down the road from St. Petersburg, Florida - HOME of the Tampa Bay Rays. In the heart of Raysmania.

The fans know each other, the teams know each other from Spring Training.


Exhibit V: Bullpens: The Rays 'pen - despite a "lockdown closer" is just as good, nee... better than the Phillies vaunted corps. Some people might be surprised to learn that Brad Lidge's former pitching coach in Houston (Jim Hickey) and his best friend from that Astros team (Dan Wheeler) are both in Tampa. The Rays certainly have more depth in the 'pen and more versatility as well as guys who can chow down on innings.

Another thing people fail to notice is that David Price, the Rays’ “Ace of the Future” is their current shutdown arm out the ‘pen of now. Brad Lidge might have more impressive numbers and experience over Price, but DP has two distinct advantages – NONE of the Phillies have ever seen how nastfilthy he is and he is as supremely talented as any pitcher alive right now. He’s a lefty with a serious fastball with movement, a wicked slider three other pretty decent pitches and a ferocious competitiveness with a sick calmness about him.

My wife likened him to Tim Duncan because of his demeanor and quiet, cool competitiveness. I kinda agree.

This series will likely be decided by either a few dominant starters or the bullpens as many World Series seem to...


Exhibit W: A useless point: I have a brother that lives in Tampa and a brother that lives in the Philly burbs. I don't really like either one of them.

Oddly enough, my brother Dru who died of AIDS and led to events that inspired me to sell my fan soul in the first place...? He was a Phillies fan! In fact, my first game at the Vet in 1983 was because these three brothers dragged me -the little twerp - along!


Exhibit X: Common Players between the teams:

Kevin Stocker. The former Phillies shortstop was the first player the Tampa Bay Devil Rays ever traded for. After drafting Bobby Abreu from Houston as their third pick in the 1997 expansion draft, Tampa Bay traded him for Kevin Stocker... straight up!!!

Travis Lee: Yup, "T.L. the wunderkind" donned the Green Rays jersey as well as the Red Pinstripes. Though he had two of his finest seasons with the Rays and the Phillies, to no one's surprise he also sucked for both teams, playing 69% of his "illustrious" career with these two franchises.

Julio Franco - Yup, he started his career with the Phillies in 1982 and seemed to have ended his career with one measly at bat with the Devil Rays in 1999 at age 41. Somehow he came back in 2001 and played another 7 seasons.

Roberto Hernandez - There are some players that give nightmares to fans of every team they played for...


Exhibit Y: Come on... using logic this series shouldn't even be close.

The Phillies limped into first place in a division with the 'Chokes, Braves and Nationals... and don't try to convince me that the Marlins are "tough".

The Rays won the AL East against the two richest, deepest teams in baseball and the Blue Jays who have a solid team and is only getting better. The Blue Jays and the Orioles have some of the game's best prospects coming really soon - so the AL East is only going to get better!

The Phillies (92 wins) beat a floundering Brewers (90 wins) club and another backed-into-the-playoffs team in the Dodgers (84 wins). Come on - LOOK at the NL West!!! Sure the Dodgers beat the Lay-Down Cubs but WHO honestly thought the Dodgers were worthy of representing the NL?

The Rays (97 wins) beat the White Sox (89 wins) and Red Sox (95 wins) who just happen to be 3 of the last 4 World Series Champs...

So the Rays have played in the tougher league, tougher division and had a more difficult path to the World Series after spending the entire season proving everyone wrong... maybe they're tired? The logical Phils fans are hoping so.

But let's face it... the Rays have two good luck charms - Me and Johnny Gomes


Exhibit Z: Of course, I am rooting for the Rays and everything I see on paper says they should win this series easily, but still there's an eery feeling I am having about this (eery feeling = something Sports Shaman said to me in a reading BEFORE the playoffs). It seems too simple to be this simple...

Regardless, simply put the Phillies have ALL the pressure on them. They backed into the playoffs. They NEED a title. The City NEEDS a title. The fans NEED a title and all the signs are there to end the misery - yet there are signs to prolong the misery in Philly, as well...

If the Rays lose, so what? They weren't supposed to be here yet. They are a year ahead of schedule and will be heavy favorites to return to the playoffs and make several more runs at a World Series title. A World Series loss would not be anything to fret over at this point.


No matter what, I'll enjoy it.

You will likely be seeing this guy doing this many times over his career…
You will likely be seeing this guy doing this many times over his career…

My heart says Rays in 5, my brain says Rays in 4, I'll hope for a Game Seven that goes 15 innings or more and for no stupid shit to make the difference to give false memeories to the mindless (ex. - Bill Buckner's error DID NOT LOSE THE WORLD SERIES FOR THE '86 RED SOX! Steve Bartman didn't lose ANYTHING for the Cubs, and Derek Jeter's "flip" didn't win a World Series for the Yankees) And my fear (and hope for things that irritate me - such as imaginary curses - to go away) says Phillies will win this series.

Let's just have a classic, long Series and let the idiots who don't watch because the Red Sox and Dodgers aren't playing turn their channels and miss out on the two best TEAMS in baseball duking it out in October.

Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
Steel TownDraft Pick
405 days ago
Score 2+-
You can get Yuengling at both Heinze Field and PNC Park.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
405 days ago
Score 2+-
I said MAJOR LEAGUES... (just kidding).

You can probably find some in New York, too. Yuenling will only ship it by truck and won't send it anywhere no matter how much you BEG THEM and HARASS them... I've tried!

Maybe I should have clarified that these are the two teams closest to the two Yuengling factories?
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
405 days ago
Score 2+-
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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SSreportersLegend
405 days ago
Score -2+-
The reply button is your friend.
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JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 3+-
A)Problem Solved

billypenn.jpg

B) Shane Victorino is head and shoulders a better, smarter, craftier and down right faster centerfielder than Upton...why compare the two. Its offensive that people suggest Vic's glove is somehow deficient in comparison...

C) Attempting to suggest Pena is as good with a stick as Howard is laughable. I like Pena, but come on now...

D) The Phillies averaged less than 3,000 fans more than the Rays for road games. - What? If you're saying the Phillies are less of a Road attraction, let me put it this way. The Rays played the Yankees and Sox in september...the Phillies. They played the Braves, Nationals and Marlins.

E) Phillies player blew his only save all season (Brad Lidge). - False

F) better than the Phillies vaunted corps - Hahahahahaha

G) And as far as Pressure? Well...everyone Picked the rays...no one (actually, one guy) picked the Phils...

They're the also-ran of Philadelphia sports (as long as i've been alive) and frankly...if they lose, I wouldn't be surprised...
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
404 days ago
Score 0+-
Nice catch on the Lidge statement. He didn't blow a save opportunity in the All-Star game, he simply lost the game, that's right!

(Don't know why I thought he was defending a lead...)

And yes, Carlos Pena is a better player than Ryan Howard. The difference in their batting is negligible - and much easily debated for Pena as the better hitter than you think - but the difference in their glove is light years apart.
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JuTMSY4Legend
404 days ago
Score 0+-
If Pena plays in a better lineup than Howard, shouldn't he at least have more RBIs?

He also puts more balls in play...more RBIs right?

and yet...
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
404 days ago
Score 0+-
Pena was hurt this year. He missed time with a broken hand and played a month before it was 100%. Look at his stats last year when he was healthy (and still missed most of the first month) and on the "worst team in baseball"...

Or better yet - let's even the field - Let's look at 2008 playoffs.

Carlos Pena has 4 more hits (12-8), 3 more HR (3-0) and 5 more RBI (8-3) in only 5 more AB... what were you saying?
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KelsdadAll-Star
405 days ago
Score 4+-
Way back before I knew or cared about baseball, I had experiences with the Phillies. See, my mom is a geneologist, and she found we had some relative who was a Civil War hero at Gettysburg. So, instead of taking family vacations to Cape Cod, or Atlantic City, or Lake George, we were trapsing around the battlefields in and around Gettysburg looking for a facking headstone. And if that wasn't bad enough, my dad thought it would be a good idea if we could spend additional quality time in a little camper. Now, today, I love history, and the Civil War, although I wouldn't camp out again for ten million bucks, and that's no BS.

Driving through PA, we'd sometimes listen to the Phillies games on radio, I remember distinctly the announcer saying Richie Allen would be out awhile after cutting his hand while pushing his car when the headlight broke, that was in 1966. Seeing as I can't say I became a true baseball fan before mid-1967, (dad's a Red Sox fan, tie the two together), and a Yankee fan before early '68, then you can see I was actually a Phillies fan first.

Reality has shown that over the past few seasons the American League to be decidedly better than the NL, where the top four or five AL teams are all better than the best NL teams. That said, if I could sit down and dissect each team, I don't think I could find a better match than the Rays and Phillies.

As what usually happens in the Series, it will likely come down to matchups and intangibles. How Joe Maddon forms his roster will have an impact, for three games he will have no DH, and will have to manage double switches and the bench/bullpen differently than he has all season. Charlie Manuel too, will have to watch Cole Hamel's pitch counts, I can't see the Rays having a shot against him, if the series goes seven, Hamels will need to be strong to start on three day's rest...twice.

My heart wants to see the Rays complete their dream season. Remember, both the 1967 "Impossible Dream" Red Sox and the 1969 "Miracle Mets" were both 100-1 shots to win the World Series, the 2008 Rays were 200-1.

Looking at it from the brain side, I see the Phillies core players being better than the Rays. For the Rays to win, they'll need dominating performances from more than one player, like they got from Garza, Longoria and Upton in the ALCS. The Phils can win with a dominating performance from just one player, because they have more depth from which to draw support.

Phils in six, with Brad Lidge being named MVP.
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JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 0+-
FYI Cole Hamels has already said he won't pitch on 3 days rest... I don't see it happening at all...
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
405 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree with JuT. And I wouldn't want Hamels to pitch on that rest. He wouldn't be into it and the outing would be crap. He's done it before. You'll get two quality starts out of him if you do it his way. Then all the Phils need are two more quality starts. I think Myers can give them that. And if he gives two, who knows what could happen?
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
405 days ago
Score 4+-
Answer honestly: If the Phillies were in the AL East, would they have made the playoffs?

The answer, it seems, is no. Boston, New York, Tampa Bay and even perhaps Toronto were all stronger clubs during the regular season.

New York would have won the NL East with ease, and the Blue Jays would have had one of the strongest pitching staffs in the NL.

Boston and Tampa Bay outlasted each of these teams. And, Manny is right. The Dodgers, with only 84 wins, had no business sniffing the postseason.

For this series, while anyhing could happen in only a best-of-seven format, the Rays should win fairly easily.

It comes down to pitching and defense. The Rays have a better rotation, especially in the back end. Hamels is the most talented starter on either club, but after him there is a consideradle drop off. Which Brett Myers will show up?

If the Rays can beat him in Game 1, this series may end, like it did last fall, in four games.

The Rays are the better club defensively as well, having converted a higher percentage of balls put into play into outs than any other team. That's what matters most.

The bullpen advantage goes to the Phils, who are 86-0 when in games in which they have a lead in the ninth inning. But the difference is not that much, especially with the Rays' secret weapon, David Price.

Offensively, the Phillies probably get the edge. But if the Rays can continue to swing it like they did in the ALCS, then they have the edge.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 1+-
A) Please sign up, that's a well thought out comment, even if I disagree

B) The Phils don't play in the AL East though. But using your logic, no wild card team ever has any business in the world series

C) 2006 St. Louis Cardinals

D) The Rays are welcome to have a better backend rotation...too bad those starters (Edwin Jackson) have little to no effect...

E) The Phillies Bullpen hasn't given up 7 runs in one game (or for that matter, a series)
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KelsdadAll-Star
405 days ago
Score 0+-
Which Matt Garza will show up?
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RomiezzoLegend
405 days ago
Score 2+-
I thought there was only one Matt Garza...
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
405 days ago
Score 4+-
JUT, if you would honestly take Victorino over Upton, you are, well, nuts. It's not even close. Upton has better on-base skills, more power, is more athletic, stronger, and is a much better defender in center field.

Upton played with a bum shoulder all year, which limited his production in terms of slugging percentage. But, when healthy, comparing the two is not even close. He is going to be a 30/30 player one day, and consistently posts OBPs close to .400.

Victorino's line--.293/.352/.447, 14 home runs, .799 OPS

Upton's line--.273/.383/.401, nine home runs, .784 OPS

Considering Upton's shoulder, going forward you have to choose him. As he has proved with his power surge in the playoffs, the lack of power was an abberation, which is the only reason why Shane hit more homers and had a higher slugging and OPS clip.

Next year, Upton should hit around 25 bombs, with an OPS in the plus-.900 range. Victorino's has had a cute little run in the playoffs in his own right, but he is not in the same class as B.J.
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JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 0+-
I was talking defense only. We're also talking this series only...

I think one of the misnomers about baseball teams is that Player X (a centerfielder) is better than Player Y (A centerfielder for the other team) and that's it. You gotta look at the group and their skill sets.

And yes, as a fielder, I do believe Vic is better...a lot better...
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
405 days ago
Score 0+-
Victorino is not in Upton's class.

People can get on Upton for "not hustling" all they want. He is a FREEK athlete and even when he hustles it's so effortless that it looks like he's lazy.

He's not lazy and he does understand the game VERY well.

In four years when B.J. is the same age as Victorino now... let's see how they compare...

And you're on crack if you think Victorino is a better fielder than Upton (or is faster, because he ain't)
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JuTMSY4Legend
404 days ago
Score 0+-
I don't think

I know, Vic is a better fielder...

You should watch Victorino (Who also covers Burrell's territory...does Upton cover crawford's?) before you make such a statement...
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
404 days ago
Score 0+-
Ummm.. YES! Upton covers more OF than any CF in the game!

He plays in closer than any CF because he can go back faster than any CF. He DOES get balls that Crawford normally would have to.

I've seen Victorino play many times - he's a nice player, a sparkplug type and love him all you want, he's NOT in B.J.'s class athletically or skillwise. Shane is "a poor man's Lenny Dykstra" and B.J. is "a young, healthy Eric Davis"...

Here's the scary part - Upton is still learning CF. He battled a shoulder injury most of the season and got healthy just in time for the playoffs (thus his HR totals in the playoffs nearly matching his season HR totals).

He's faster afoot, has more power and can hit for a higher average, has a MUCH stronger arm than Vic and has AMAZING strength in his forearms and wrists. I've seen this dude in the lockerroom and thought "How does he do it?"

He looks rail thin and is country strong. He's such a graceful athlete that he looks "lazy" - because he's so smooth it looks like he's not trying hard.

He's one of God's finest athletic specimens.

I think you need to watch Upton play more!
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
405 days ago
Score 4+-
The Cardinals are proof for what is wrong with the playoffs. They got hot at the right time, but it is a joke that they won the title after getting hot in such a small sample size.

After Hamels, the rest of the Rays' rotation is just better.

Garza is a stud. Even if Kazmir throws damn near 50 pitches in the first inning and the Rays lose in Game 1 thanks to Mr.-I-am-not-efficient-with-my-pitches-Scott, you have to like their odds with Shields and Garza in the next two games.

And, home-field advantage will play a part in this series. The Rays truly are a different team at home, in the friendly confines of the most-criticized domed-environment in sports, the Trop.
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JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 0+-
So if home field plays a part...and Cole Hamels wins game 1... Then Phillies in 5?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
405 days ago
Score 0+-
And if Hamels loses Game 1, it's a sweep, right? Just remember JuT - in order for Hamels to beat the Rays, the Phillies have to beat Scott Kazmir, too. Sure, he may not have had the illustrious numbers that Hamels has had in the playoffs but the Rays aren't the Brewers or Dodgers and Kazmir can be as dominant as ANY pitcher in the game on any given start.
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JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 0+-
sign up and also, I'm sorry the red sox lost...deal with it...
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
405 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm happy the Red Sox lost. I hate them with a passion, in fact. I just respect them, as they are the best franchise in baseball right now. I actually grew up near Philly, and went to tons of games at the Vet back in the day. I don't care who wins, but I think the Rays are the better club-with more talent.

The Cards showed us that anything can happen, but the Rays have to be to the favorites. I just hope it will be a great series that goes the distance of seven games.

If you were a GM and not a fan of the Phils, not accounting for financial factors (team control, contracts, etc...) which rotation would you choose to give your team the strongest chance for winning this series?
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JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 0+-
Ha, I've actually already picked the Rays in 6...

But people thinking this series is somehow over before it started is ridiculous

I think top to bottom, the Rays have a top 5 rotation in baseball (probably the best in a year or 2)...but its a 7 game series and honestly, given the Phillies lefty-laden line-up, Only Kazmir scares me...and the Phils counter with Hamels (who I agree is the best pitcher of the 8 starters)

But its baseball. If August Brett Myers shows up and its a whole different series. Moyer loves young lineups, there's a reason who owns the nationals/expos and marlins historically...they have young impatient teams (like the rays!).
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
405 days ago
Score 2+-
It's more than the rotation. The Phils have been winning with this rotation (92 wins), and all the 'experts' were telling us from March on how this team would score a ton of runs and give up a ton of runs. Nice theory, but it didn't really go that way. The pitching was not spectacular, but it was solid and kept teams honest. Then the offense would slumber for 5 or 6 innings, and then score just enough to win the game in the end. This was played out more than a few times in the postseason.


The Phillies were not expected to do this well. This is a great thing for them to be here. There's no reason why they can't win. Tampa is an excellent team. But so are the Phillies. This could be one of those World Series folks bore their kids to death rehashing 20 years after the fact.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
405 days ago
Score 0+-
If this series goes more than 4 games it'll have to go seven and be an all-timer. But I can help but logically see this series as a wipeout. What the Rays did to the Red Sox was far more important to their psyche collectively - much like the Red Sox vanquishing the Yankees in '04 then sweeping the Cardinals handily...

If you think the Rays aren't more confident, more together and more prepared coming into this series than any team in the history of baseball coming into the World Series well then you don't understand Joe Maddon. He's been prepping this team for this exact scenario ALL SEASON LONG FOR THIS.

The Rays aren't "just happy to be here" they're here for a reason.

The Phillies were hoping just to make it to the playoffs this year, maybe win a game or two this time... possibly advance beyond the first round... the Rays were playing like it already was the playoffs IN SPRING TRAINING.
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JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 0+-
Your most uninformed comment...ever
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JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 2+-
You act like there's only one side...

If you think the Rays aren't more confident, more together and more prepared coming into this series than any team in the history of baseball coming into the World Series well then you don't understand Joe Maddon.

Most confident team ever? More Prepared?

Just because the Rays eccentric manager has been preparing doesn't mean he's prepared...

You don't know Charlie Manuel

The Phillies aren't just happy to be there. Honestly, you have no idea. That comment was so lost, its offensive. Ridiculous, ludicrous and incorrect.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
404 days ago
Score 0+-
I don't get the sense that the Phils think that "just being there" is good enough either. I think they've tasted enough losing to know that it sucks. And now they've been dissed in two consecutive playoff series, so I hope they have the same "screw you" attitude I have.


I think the Phillies have every chance to take this thing. I can hardly wait for this thing to get started.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
404 days ago
Score 0+-
I've said way worse.

And I stand by it all.

Don't try and pull the wool over my eyes. You and EVRY single Phillie fan was hoping more than anything simply to NOT GET SWEPT out of the playoffs just like last year.


Play this "I don't know the Phillies" or "I don't know Charlie Manuel" all you want - but I do.

I am not the uninformed enemy you want to make me out to be. I have LOTS of exposure to the Phillies.

If anything, you're uninformed about the opponent. I've been giving you excellent info about this team for two seasons now and it reads exactly like a freeking blueprint.

I don't mean to make you feel like I'm disrespecting the Phillies but how many Goliaths does Cinderella need to slay before people pay attention to the shift in reality?

The Rays aren't here just for a World Series, they're here to stay!
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
405 days ago
Score 2+-
Manny, I knew this was coming. I've only read part of it so far - up to exhibit D, so far, you windbag! :-). I agree with you, partly on the the "let the Rays be the Rays thing."


I'll take it a step further. The Mets and Buccaneers (I don't know crap about hockey, so I leave the Lightning out of this) are not accurate comparisons to the Rays. The Mets and Bucs were formed in an era with no supplemental draft and no chance to get decent players from other teams, a la Carolina Panthers and Jacksonville Jaguars. They both truly got the worst of the worst and went out and defined futlity for their sports.


The Phillies simply have had poor ownership over the years. This is pretty much true of all Philly teams, with the exception of the Ruly Carpenter years for the Phils and the Leonard Tose years for the Eagles. Man it was fun being a Philly fan from the mid 70s to the mid 80s!


Looks like I lost the point somewhere. Oh well. So far, I like what I've read. I'll keep up my Phils/Dodgers trend and say: Phillies in 6! Go Phils!
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JuTMSY4Legend
405 days ago
Score 2+-
of course Leonard tose did gamble the team away...
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
405 days ago
Score 0+-
But they went to the Super Bowl. And had arguably their best coach during his tenure. If there had been a Tose/Ryan combo, things might have played out very differently. Buffalo could have lost a Super Bowl to four NFC East teams.
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
405 days ago
Score 0+-
I do realize that Tose/Ryan is pretty much a non-starter, but it would have been better than the reality. Nothing could really top the Tose/Vermeil years. So much potential there.


I think that the current Eagles regime is an interesting one, and certainly has made their mark with winning teams and a Super Bowl appearance...but I'd take Vermeil back in a heartbeat.
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KelsdadAll-Star
405 days ago
Score 2+-
Wow, a Leonard Tose reference...what a douchebag. He makes Donald Sterling look good, and that takes alot.
Permalink | Reply
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
405 days ago
Score 0+-
Donald Sterling? How many NBA Championships have the Clippers been in? I think this is an unfair comparison. Tose might be a drunk idiot gambler, but he was a decent owner. At least the team was good and had hopes for being better with him. Now - Norman Braman compared to Sterling? Maybe that's a better comparison.
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KelsdadAll-Star
405 days ago
Score 0+-
Decent owners don't gamble their teams away. Or their trucking business either.
Permalink | Reply
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
405 days ago
Score 0+-
I think that decent owners can do that sort of thing. I'll bet that Tose is not the only franchise owner to have to give up his team or business because of poor personal decisions.


Tose was the best owner the Eagles have had. He has many sins to his credit, but being a bad team owner is not one of them. Eagles fans should lament his poor judgment every time they hear the phrase "pedal to the metal"


JuT, you have my sympathy.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
405 days ago
Score 0+-
I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that "Phillies have ALL the pressure on them. They backed into the playoffs."


I am thinking that these guys don't seem to worry so much about the pressure of the past. Maybe they're just loose enough to make some noise.


And implying that they backed in...rather than they played their way in. I don't agree with that at all. Maybe they got a good draw in Milwaukee and LA, but they gave Milwaukee a beat down in the regular season when Mil was still considered a contender. In fact, it was the Phillies that pretty much hammmered them down. I'll bet Ned Yost isn't rooting for the Phils.


Simply put, the Phils outplayed the Mets, won 92 games and took the division to get to where they are now. Give them credit - they are playing good baseball and have earned their spot in the postseason.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
405 days ago
Score 0+-
More people are probably rooting for the Rays because they're the cinderella story, not because they're the overwhelmingly better team. As much as I want the Rays to win, deep down, because of the worst to first thing, reality says the Phils will be their most difficult opponent because of matchups.

Call it East Coast bias, call it Red Sox nation, whatever, but the Rays are going to find out how much better Cole Hamels is over Jon Lester, and how much better Chase Utley is than Dustin Pedroia, and how much more impactful Ryan Howard and Pat Burrell are over anyone else.

The Phils have the advantage at second, short, left, right and the bullpen. The Rays have the edge at catcher, first, third, center and in the rotation. The gaps are smaller on the Rays advantages except third, than are the Phils'.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
405 days ago
Score 0+-
Alright... I'm getting tired of this... I am having a horrible time getting on this site the past two days.

"The Rays haven't seen... blah blah blah"How about - THE WORLD -including the Phillies hasn't seen the RAYS yet?


When they went against the White Sox it was "Mark Buerhle is too good for the Rays. He's perhaps the best lefty in the game" then it was "Jon Lester is the best lefty - perhaps PITCHER in the game 'right now'" and now it's "the Rays haven't seen what Cole Hamels can do..."

You know what? The Phillies aren't going to do shit off of Kazmir! What are the Phillies going to do with Shields or Garza?

The Rays are going to obliterate Jamie Moyer and Joe Blanton... O - BLIT - ER - ATE.

And guess what happens if the Rays win Game 1 - REGARDLESS how Hamels does... - Brett Myers will get crushed, that's what.

Look, the Phillies have a nice bullpen and Cole Hamels is a good pitcher but LET'S BE REALISTIC - Cole Hamels isn't going to walk over the Rays and no matter HOW GOOD your 7th, 8th and 9th inning pitchers are (hello? the Rays beat Papelbon and Rivera this season) it won't matter when your starters don't make it to the 6th...

Everyone is STILL discounting the Rays and I love it. Like they got lucky all season long, winning the AL EAST... winning the playoffs, beating the DEFENDING CHAMPS and now - all of a sudden the PHILLIES are going to dismantle them???

Seriously - hello??? People... wake up!
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KelsdadAll-Star
405 days ago
Score 0+-
I don't recall anyone saying Mark Buerhle was too good for the Rays, and that he is "perhaps the best lefty in the game." Anyone who thinks that is an idiot. You say in your last paragraph it is your "fear the Phillies will win this series", then rip them in a comment..so, on which were you intoxicated?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
405 days ago
Score 0+-
You and a lot of people don't remember a LOT of things...

I said I "fear" the Phillies will win. Being afraid that something might happen is not the same as "knowing" it won't.

Look, the Phillies aren't a tougher opponent than the Red Sox or even the White Sox were... the Rays will handle the weaker N.L. team with ease. And Pssst! Joe Maddon can handle managing in a N.L. park just fine - check the Rays record ininterleague under his reign (12-6 this season and 30-24 over the last three seasons, that's including the putrid '06 and '07 teams) - he didn't just wake up after falling off the proverbial turnip truck.

I also said it's going to be a Rays sweep or five games MAX...

If not for the Sports Shaman saying something back in the waning days of September, there's nothing that would have lent me any doubt.

I want a seven game series that goes deep into extra innings but I also say that EVERY year.
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KelsdadAll-Star
405 days ago
Score 0+-
The internet is a mess all round it seems, I've been having trouble with everything.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
405 days ago
Score 0+-
"You and a lot of people don't remember a LOT of things"

You're in there too, fyi...

I said there are four or five AL teams better than the best NL team, which is true. I also said the Phillies present the best (or worst, depending on who you're rooting for) matchup for the Rays. Also true.

And, trust me, I would NEVER forget some moron calling Mark Buerhle the best lefty in the game.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
405 days ago
Score 0+-
The Phillies won't beat the Rays straight up in a clean series. It will take miraculous events/injuries/choking like we've never seen before/all of the above.

The Rays have been one of the best teams ALL SEASON, the tighest knit team ALL SEASON and they waited until the end of September and October to play their best baseball of ALL SEASON.

I don't know why everyone thinks the Phillies are a bad matchup for the Rays - NO TEAM is a bad matchup for the Rays!

What do the Rays do? They pitch well, get solid defense, have a deep bullpen and a versatile bench, they have power AND speed and each player on the team would sacrifice everything for the betterment of the team. They don't rely on "stars" like the Phillies do, they don't rely "strategy" - they simply play the game with all they've got, together, every game. They are focused, confident and ready to prevail - the world is about to get yet another lesson.

Teams of destiny - teams that run the season from March to October - don't just try on the slipper... they WEAR the slipper!


Remember this - because we'll be back here in 12 months with the Rays and the next victim/sacrificial lamb to represent the N.L.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
404 days ago
Score 1+-
Almost a shame they actually have to play the games, isn't it? I feel bad for Tampa that the trophy hasn't been presented to them already based on what they've done rather than what they still need to do.


Sorry, Phils - 92 wins mean nothing. You're going down, boys. But it was a nice run...
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JuTMSY4Legend
404 days ago
Score 1+-
Reread your comment and let's apply that to the Phils

You could say the exact same thing Manny...

The Phillies rely on stars because they made stars...Rollins, Utley (god's gift to baseball), Howard, Burrell, Hamels

They'll all studs (especially "Bait")

The Phillies won't beat the Rays straight up in a clean series. It will take miraculous events/injuries/choking like we've never seen before/all of the above.

That's a ridiculous statement. You just took everything a way from a team that's earned a whole lot. Its unfair, rude and disrespectful...

The Rays were a nice chokejob away from being another AL footnote...
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
404 days ago
Score 1+-
The Phillies "earned a whole lot" in the NL East...???

Want some historical perspective? This Phillies team wouldn't even beat the '93 Phillies team.

Let's be honest here: right now the NL is inferior top to bottom.

And the Phillies are the cream of the default crop. They've "hung in there" all season long. That's not going to work any longer.

Believe me, I feel for the fanbase. I know what makes Phillies fans tick... you know, I know and every Phillies fan knows that deep in their heart, this team isn't as good as it could/should be... and it's just not their time. It's the Rays' series/season to lose...

Have a fun four games!
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
404 days ago
Score 1+-
NL Pennant...

and they beat the Red Sox best player...

Why waste time with this...you're about to see Cole Hamels...you can learn it all right here

#68 Cole Hamels will win one Cy young...and 11 Cole Hamels...
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
404 days ago
Score 1+-
Now that's ridiculous. You are moaning about "Everyone is STILL discounting the Rays and I love it" - go ahead and love it.


Cole Hamels doesn't have to "walk over the Rays" - all he has to do is pitch the way he has all season. The Phillies are not going to be cowed if the Rays score 3 runs off Hamels. They've seen that before. Oh wait - that's right - the Rays will score 13 off Hamels, right? Because the Rays beat out the 'mighty' Yankees and wiped out the Red Sox (because being the defending champ automatically confers "best team" status on that defending team), so the itty bitty Phils have NO SHOT.


I don't really like to get into stupid sports arguments like this (especially when there is no beer involved), but what kind of a sports fan (and Phillies fan) would I be if I didn't believe that they will win? Even despite an expert telling me otherwise.


So....Unless you're Nostra-freaking-damus, you'll forgive me for assuming the Phillies will NOT get swept and may even win. I see this series in six or seven games.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
404 days ago
Score 1+-
but what kind of a sports fan (and Phillies fan) would I be if I didn't believe that they will win?

You'd be a Philly fan...ha

Eternally pessimistic...

I don't think they'll win. I hope they win. It think Manny saying the Phils have no chance is ridiculous. I think him suggesting they're inferior somehow, is ridiculous. But him saying the Rays will win? I believe that (I don't think it'll be a sweep though...)

I still think Rays in 6...

I'd like to be wrong
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
404 days ago
Score 0+-
I usually am pessimistic when it comes to the Phils. But I never had a doubt about them with the Brewers or Dodgers and that is pretty rare. I still feel very positive about them. It's new ground. I, too, hope they win. And not to slake the city's desire for a championship...just because it would be freakin' cool. A parade? Eff yeah!
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
404 days ago
Score 0+-
And one last point in the Phils favor: Jim "expert" Caple has predicted a Rays win in four games. This is the same putz that predicted an LA win in five games. This guy ought to be a weatherman since he gets his shit so wrong time after time and comes back for more pathetic predictions. Please, Jim Caple - spare me. I think I'll read the opinions of people (like Manny Stiles) who actually thought about it before making a prediction.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
404 days ago
Score 0+-
I really fucking don't like Jim Caple. He's stolen (professionally borrowed) a couple ideas of mine in the past and acts like he doesn't know I know it. Come on, you pussy. E-mail me back, Jim! But even a blind douche bag (Caple) can find it's target by accident on occasion...
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JuTMSY4Legend
404 days ago
Score 1+-
As an AGM youngin, I used to enjoy those Page 2 guys

they just grate on me now...maybe i'm more mature, or above them or I've changed

I dunno, but they just don't have the same effect on me

Maybe I'm just jaded now?
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
404 days ago
Score 0+-
The Rays couldn't beat the '93 Phils either....
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
404 days ago
Score 0+-
You think the '93 Phillies wouldn't have been more of a mess in Tampa than Toronto during the road games??


JuT - Page 2 died to me the day Hunter S. Thompson shot himself and was buried the day Ralph Wiley died.

I also don't like Dan Shanoff for badmouthing me needlessly when I put my fanship up for charity. It reeked of petty jealousy that I was more creative than he is... BTW - I also supplied Shanoff with plenty of material in my pre-AGM days...
Permalink
CheezerAll-Star
404 days ago
Score 1+-
But the Rays are having these guys sing the National Anthem. (shudders)
Permalink | Reply
SSreportersLegend
404 days ago
Score 0+-
You know game 2 will be Bonerama!
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
404 days ago
Score 0+-
Reminder - I DID pick the Phillies to meet the Rays in the World Series
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
404 days ago
Score 0+-
You also picked the Mets in September...
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
404 days ago
Score 1+-
Manny, your adamancy about the Series being a sweep while discounting the Phillies as nothing more than a Triple A team is getting annoying.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
404 days ago
Score 0+-
ah, there is is
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Anonymous Fanatic #2
404 days ago
Score 0+-
The Rays should sweep the series. NL is weak.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
404 days ago
Score 0+-
NFC was weak too Supeerbowl-Champions-XLII.jpg
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Categories: Yuengling fans | Opinions | Opinions by User Manny Stiles | October 21, 2008 | October 2008 | Other Opinions | World Series Opinions | MLB Opinions | Tampa Bay Rays Opinions | Philadelphia Phillies Opinions

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