armchairgm
all sports, all you
+ Add Friends
You are not logged-in.
Sign Up - Log In
Main Page
Sports
Write
Articles
Hot Links
Images
Meet People
Fun
Explore
MLB - NFL - NBA - NHL - College Basketball - College Football - Soccer - Nascar - Other
Article - Locker Room Discussion
All Articles - New Articles - Today's Articles
Submit a Link - Approve Links
Picture Game - Ratings - Polls - Pick Game - Quiz Game - Spring Silliness
Random Page - Random Image - Random Fan

About the Author

Manny Stiles
Sports is my crack. ArmchairGM is my pipe.

-mannystiles@aol.com

More By Manny Stiles

Shhhhhhhhhh!!!
10 votes, 4 comments
Let Brett Favre Do Whatever the Hell He Wants To Do, People!
9 votes, 7 comments
Baseball Fans Have It Better Than We Think
14 votes, 46 comments
View All

Other recent voters

If you like the article, vote for it.
Edit
Page history Discuss pageWhat links here

What Does 57 Saves REALLY Mean? K-Rod Is About To Break A Meaningless Record.

by Manny Stiles
created September 11, 2008, last edited February 10, 2009
13
Vote

Quick question:

Who has the record for the most holds in one season?

Oh, you say you don’t care because it’s a meaningless statistic? Ding, Ding, Ding!!! We have a winnnnnner!!! You are absolutely correct!!!

We’re a society thriving to glorify a record of convenience. What is with our passion and collective obsession with records? No one cares about meaningless statistics. Or so it seems…

Francisco Rodriguez is knocking on the door of a record – most saves in a season. The record was established by the “legendary” Bobby Thigpen of the Chicago White Sox way back in 1990.

I remember 1990. I remember Bobby Thigpen. I remember him as the “record breaker” just a year after reliever Mark Davis won the Cy Young award. And I remember them both as Phillies middle relievers. I also remember when Thigpen went to Japan. Let’s face it, during the late 80’s and early 90’s baseball was in love with “statistics” and “records” more than such indiscriminate numbers like team “wins” and “losses”.

Numbers can be made to say whatever you want them to.

Remember, it was our passion for “record” numbers that led to the “Steroid Era”. Chasing these feats of glory is exactly what led to devaluing those very statistics.

Jerome Holtzman died this year and it was just in time. He brought the save into this World and left this World just before we found the motivation to completely devalue it. When he invented the Save, it wasn’t uncommon for relief pitchers to enter a game after 5, 6 or 7 innings of a starter’s effort to pitch 2, 3 or 4 innings to complete the game and save the team’s bullpen for another day. Holtzman had no idea that Tony LaRussa would later spit on the concept of relief pitching and help devolve pitchers into “specialists”.

Quick Question:

Who was the saves leader in a season before record holder Bobby Thigpen?

Don’t know? The answer again is “Who cares?”

Why do I say that? Because in 1990 when Bobby Thigpen set the new record – NO ONE CARED!!! There was no internet, everything wasn’t the greatest thing ever and people had enough sense to realize “Hey, if Bobby Thigpen can set that record, it’s not that great of a record”.

What is a save, really?

By vague definition it’s a measurement to calculate a pitcher’s ability to maintain a lead over the last three innings given a small lead. But what does it really mean?

It means his manager and team put him in a prime position to do EVERY pitcher’s job – to get outs.

In other words, it means about as much as a game winning RBI. It’s based on a faction and environment of processed opportunity.

If you break this guy's records, should you be proud? If anything, K-Rod will get himself a bloated contract because of Thigpen.
If you break this guy's records, should you be proud? If anything, K-Rod will get himself a bloated contract because of Thigpen.

Thigpen finished his MLB career with a “whopping” 201 career saves. He had 568 and 2/3 innings pitched in his career and a 31-36 record to show for it. In contrast, that’s a bout 2 hefty seasons from a #3 or #4 starter nowadays.

Frankie Rodriguez surpassed Thigpen’s career record yesterday with his 202nd career save and no one said a peep. He also did it in 144 less career innings.

Why? Because saves are a load of bunk.

Where does Trevor Hoffman – the all-time saves leader – register amongst the all-time pitchers?

Hoffman’s 984 career IP are about two seasons of Cy Young in his prime, Trevor Hoffman’s career 1,054 K’s are roughly 3 of Nolan Ryan’s seasons of his prime. Hoffman’s 56 career wins are ten less than his losses (66).

What is impressive is Hoffman’s 2.79 career ERA – good enough to put him around 97th all time. That’s certainly far less impressive than Mariano Rivera’s 2.29 career ERA – about a half a run per 9 innings less.

Hello? Saves are a joke! How is a “save” valuable when managers have found a way to completely devalue its purpose? How many relief pitchers pitch two or even *GASP* three innings anymore?

Consider this: If Frankie Rodriguez, Bobby Thigpen or Trevor Hoffman played on teams that were truly good, the games would be won by more than three runs and they’d NEVER get a save opportunity! Saves depend on a team being “just good enough”…

The answers:

Most Holds in a season? Scott Linebrink and Tom Gordon – 36

Who held the saves in a season record before Thigpen? Dave Righetti - 46

Call me when someone gets 58 blown saves! Or 37 Holds. Until then …. Yaaaaawn.


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
JuTMSY4Legend
442 days ago
Score 3+-
Trevor Hoffman’s career 1,054 K’s are roughly 3 of Nolan Ryan’s seasons of his prime. Yeah, but Nolan Ryan has 10 times as many walks as Hoffman ; - )
Permalink | Reply
Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
442 days ago
Score 3+-
Nolan Ryan had all these strikeouts and walks... Did the batter just stand there and watch the ball go by them every time? :-P
Permalink
AmphibiousSportsDuoVarsity
442 days ago
Score 2+-
Every rabbit punch Nolan landed on Robin Ventura's head erased a thousand of those walks.
Permalink
RomiezzoLegend
442 days ago
Score 2+-
Probably. He did pitch what? 102 miles/hour?
Permalink
Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
442 days ago
Score 3+-
You could say batting average was a meaningless statistic. Against rubbish pitchers, it'll always be higher than if you're batting against good pitchers. You could say that On Base % is more important, since in effect it is more valuable to the team. All statistics are flawed. Most Home Runs is meaningless, because anyone could hit 714 HRs in a career if I was pitching most of the time. If they were against Clemens at his peak, I doubt they would. All statistics depend on various factors, which is why they all fall down.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
442 days ago
Score 5+-
I'll take Davis's role here (I think):

You're right that many of those occurrences result in facing bad pitching, but at the same time, its evened out by good pitching too. I'd be willing to bet that most players in the MLB face roughly the same number of good and bad pitchers...I've got no hard evidence, but I'd venture to guess it evens out (relatively) over seasons and careers

No perfectly, but relatively close...
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
442 days ago
Score 5+-
Stick to cricket, Alex
Permalink
Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
442 days ago
Score 2+-
Identical things happen in cricket. There's one player over here, Graeme Hick, who averages 52.something in First Class cricket. However, some say that is only true because his county, Worcestershire, play all their home games on a good batting pitch at New Road (it's under water now due to flooding, but that's a different story). When he played for England in Test Cricket, he averaged only 31. By rights, Hick should have averaged in the 40s, at least. The main reason for this was his shyness, he didn't much care for the razmatazz of Test Cricket, he much prefered the tranquility of playing infront of 20 people on a cold blustery day at New Road. From a statistical point of view, what can you draw from it? Batting averages will be higher in First Class cricket because of a lower average strength of opposing bowling. While Hick's average of 52 is the highest by anybody in First Class cricket in the last 20 years, the pitch he plays most on, the standard of bowling, even his mental attitude all play huge roles. Hick has made 100 scores of 100 or more in an innings in his career, something that only 25 people have done in total, and only 2 in the last 20 years since the reduction from 30 or so matches per season to about 18. You can't really tell how good Hick is, because his First Class play is brilliant, but his Test Match average is so weak. It's very confusing. Note also, that his Test average also counts in his First Class statistics. His average in the County Championship is 55.56, I've just worked out, and without the last 5 years or so where he hasn't as many runs because of age. He's retiring in a week or two at the age of 42.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
442 days ago
Score 5+-
Sorry, I just read this and found it to be ridiculous (and odd):

Who hold's the record for most career receptions over 87 yards in a career (NFL)?

Hank Baskett with three...hahaha
Permalink | Reply
Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
442 days ago
Score 5+-
Sorry, I just read your comment and found it to be ridiculous (and odd): Holds doesn't have an apostrophe!
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
442 days ago
Score 4+-
its still the AM here...my coffee's only half done...
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
442 days ago
Score 3+-
"Numbers can be made to say whatever you want them to"

Like Derek Jeter being a bad fielder?

Like Ryan Howard being a good hitter?

Like Fred McGriff being a Hall of Famer?

Thigpen was the starting shortstop/part time closer on the 1985 NCAA champion Mississippi State team which featured Will Clark, Rafael Palmeiro and Jeff Brantley.
Permalink | Reply
Davis21wylieMVP
442 days ago
Score 6+-
Derek Jeter is a bad fielder.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
442 days ago
Score 4+-
How dare you disrespect the home run leader! ; - )
Permalink
RomiezzoLegend
442 days ago
Score 3+-
If K-Rod gets one MVP vote because of 58 saves, I think I'm gonna be sick; he probably will, so I gotta get a bag before the playoffs start.

This whole 58 saves record is pretty cool and all, but it's only because it's a record. Thank God Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay are having remarkable seasons because I'd hate to see a pitcher who has less innings pitched than appearances to even win the Cy Young.

You wanna know what impressive is? No, it's not 57 saves? No, it's not Francisco Rodriguez (a man who has already blown 6 saves), and no, it's not Jonathan Papelbon. It's that guy who no one but Twins fans talk about. Yes, I'm talking about Joe Nathan. Although he's blown 6 saves, he's just as good as K-Rod. K-Rod may have 61 more strikeouts, but Nathan has far less walks, and when he's on the mound, it's a 1-2-3 inning. He's far more reliable than K-Rod. He has a 1.05 ERA, a 0.933 WHIP (K-Rod's is 1.251), and a phenominal 4.065 SO/BB ratio (K-Rod's is 2.323). He may only have 36 saves (20 less than K-Rod), but I'd pick him over K-Rod anyday.

Another reliable reliever this season, who has gotten the job done 35 out of 35 times, who hasn't been talked about as much, is none other than the Phillies' Brad Lidge. I wouldn't say he's better than K-Rod, but I'd say he's somewhere close to where he is as far as how I'd rank all the closers in the MLB. Check this: he has 35 saves in 35 opportunities (I just had to say it again), a 2.08 ERA, and 21 less saves than K-Rod. He's still just as good as K-Rod is.

The amount of saves (and save opportunities) a closer has used to mean a lot back in the day. Fingers, Gossage... Wetteland? KIDDING. Now, it's just the number of innings you pitched (or less) and the amount of close games a team has. Nothing else. No one looks at saves/save opportunities. Goose Gossage is in the Hall of Fame and the most saves he ever had in a season was 33. Hoyt Wilhelm, first reliever in the Hall of Fame, only had 227 saves in his career (but finished 651 of them), and pitched over 2 innings/game. THAT, my friends, is a closer: someone you can rely on to "save" the game for your team in a close situation; hence the names save and closer.

Hey, if saves meant something, how come Lee Smith is STILL not in the Hall of Fame!? Thank you for this article, Stiles. I think you covered most of what I would've said that I haven't said already.
Permalink | Reply
IbeargRed-Shirting
442 days ago
Score 3+-
In baseball as with most sports no one stats is EVER meaningful. a guy who hits .350 isn't good if almost every hit is a single and he never walks. (think freddy sanchez when he won a batting crown). Pitching alot of innings isn't very meaningful without them being quality innings.

Similarly Saves, while not very useful alone i don't think are completely meaningless. If they were then teams wouldn't have such trouble finding reliable closers over the years.

Does this mean K-rod should get MVP or Cy Young consideration? absolutely not. Because when looks at the situations he's gotten these saves in (no multi inning saves, mostly 2 and 3 run leads with no one on to start an inning) easy situations.

So while this record i wouldn't say is meaningless i would say it's not particularly meaningful.
Permalink | Reply
Mr JoshWaterboy
442 days ago
Score 2+-
If the Indians wouldn't have released Joe Borowski, he would have blown 58 saves easily!
Permalink | Reply
The PipDiv-I Stud
442 days ago
Score 2+-
I understand the "Saves being a useless stat" argument, and it makes a ton of sense. The problem comes in that a closer is not a useless position. The issue then becomes how else do you really measure the effectiveness of a closer?

K-Rod can't pitch 3 innings, but he can pitch 4-5 inning a week and secure wins for his team. And you need more than ERA, and WHIP to measure the effectiveness of the person in K-Rod's role.

Saves themselves have no intrinsic value, but they rather they serve as a barometer of a closer effectiveness. Blown Saves are big deal however. I know it seems like a contradiction but it isn't, it's baseball.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
442 days ago
Score 2+-
The problem with the position today is how it's used, thanks to Tony LaRussa. I find it mindboggling we are glorifying a guy who comes into a game with the lead, and gets three outs without the other team tying the score or taking the lead.

If Brandon Webb pitches eight innings of shutout ball, why should Brandon Lyon get the same, or in KRod's case, more attention for pitching one inning?

If John Lackey pitches eight innings of one run ball, and KRod comes in with a three run lead, and gives up a two run homer, why should we think he pitched well? The starter pitched 8 innings and gave up one run, the reliever gave up two runs in one inning?

Gossage's 300 and something saves are far more meaningful than Mariano Rivera's total, far more. Yet Rivera's the greatest closer of all time?

I don't think so.
Permalink | Reply
The PipDiv-I Stud
442 days ago
Score 0+-
LaRussa may be the villain here, but the guy wins, and he's won where ever he has managed. If baseball were like other sports they'd have tweaked the rules to cut his nonsense out.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
442 days ago
Score 0+-
LaRussa wins with luck and loses with superior talent. How many 95+ wins teams has he managed that din't win titles... or playoffs series? Meanwhile his 85 win 2006 Cardinals make him a Hall of Famer? No way that guy is a top 20 manager of all-time depite what his win totals say...
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
442 days ago
Score 0+-
LaRussa's a better manager than Bobby Cox...
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
442 days ago
Score 0+-
That's very debatable.
Permalink
IbeargRed-Shirting
442 days ago
Score 0+-
Kelsdad in regards to your point about rivera versus gossage. Its tough for someone like myself who was too young to really see Gossage in his prime all we can do is look at statistics. Gossage had a higher era, lower K/bb ratio, higher WHIP, and higher ERA in the postseason. I would never say Mo is a better closer because he has more saves, just like i would never say Hoffman is better than either guy. Throwing the other stats into the equation though I'd certainly argue mo was better and probably the most dominant closer ever.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
442 days ago
Score 1+-
Who says the 9th inning is more important than any other inning? If your team takes care of business for the first 6-8 innings, THERE IS NO SAVE OPPORTUNITY. Each of the 27 outs are equally important.
Permalink | Reply
IbeargRed-Shirting
442 days ago
Score 0+-
yes, theoretically all 27 outs in baseball are equally important, but even billy beane (one of the foremost believers in that theory) has conceded those outs in the ninth psychologically are just a little more meaningful. And as Yogi Berra said 90% of the game is half mental.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
442 days ago
Score 1+-
The Angels have allowed 49 runs in the 9th inning and scored 48. Over 140-some games that's a pretty insignificant difference. Keep in mind, teams will score less runs in the ninth inning when they are at home with the lead after the top of the ninth and vice versa.
Permalink
The PipDiv-I Stud
442 days ago
Score 0+-
It's part of American sports culture. In all sports we get excited about the endings. The NBA and NFL change the rules of the game near the end. I can't single out or blame baseball for a stat when the two other major leagues (insert hobby joke here) do much much worse, for the sole purpose of trying make games close at the end.
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
442 days ago
Score 2+-
The same theory is applied to Carlos Delgado's MVP chances. He was awful the first 2 1/2 months of the season, and just because he's been great since doesn't mean that these games are more important than those in June and July. A guy with a .349 OBP shouldn't win the MVP award.
Permalink
Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
441 days ago
Score 2+-
Manny: fewer runs! Pip: If I said that I'd have scored -5. :-P
Permalink
SyonvermaWaterboy
441 days ago
Score 0+-
Getting saves are pretty helpful, but true it pretty much is pointless...
Permalink | Reply
Add your Comment
ArmchairGM welcomes all comments. If you don't want to be anonymous, Register or Login. It's free
Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User Manny Stiles | September 11, 2008 | September 2008 | Other Opinions | Los Angeles Angels Opinions | Francisco Rodriguez Opinions | Bobby Thigpen Opinions | Trevor Hoffman Opinions | MLB Opinions | Mariano Rivera Opinions | Tom Gordon Opinions | Scott Linebrink Opinions | Davfe Righetti Opinions

Don't Miss

Phillies World Series 2009: A Year Later, and They Still Don't Want Us
Sorry, But I'm Not Sorry
2009 NHL Preview
In Which Ricketts Wins World Series
2009 Week 3: Let’s Talk About Your Favorite NFL Team

In the News

Hey ArmchairGM users! Want to help the admins update this news section? Click here to help us out.

Comments of the Day

0 Wheres Vinny Testeverde?
0 Lou, you said it all......Mickey Cochrane wasn"t j...

Take a Poll

Would you boycott a game with a player who had been caught cheating on the roster?
Yes No

New Articles

Best African-American Quarterback Ever?
Ken Caminiti: National League's 1996 MVP
Winter Olympics 2010
Highlights from Dubai 7's
Triple Crown Winner Lou Gehrig: No MVP

Retrieved from "http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Article:What_Does_57_Saves_REALLY_Mean%3F_K-Rod_Is_About_To_Break_A_Meaningless_Record."

This page was last modified 14:49, 11 September 2008. Content is available under the GFDL.

Main Page About Special Pages Help Terms of Use Advertise