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Wizardman

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The Keltner List: Curt Schilling

by Wizardman
created June 22, 2008, last edited August 06, 2009
26
Vote

The Keltner List, for those that may not know, is simply a method of determining whether or not a player is deserving of the Hall of Fame. As Curt Schilling is the subject of talks of being borderline of late, I thought I'd pose the question to myself, and see the results that came up. I plan to do this with other players if this catches on.

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball? The answer to this is certainly a no. Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, and maybe a couple others could've laid claim to being the best active player.

2. Was he the best player on his team? Yes and no. He was probably the best player on the Phillies in the late 1990's. He was among the best players in Arizona, but again Johnson likely holds claim to being the best. For Boston he may have been the best pitcher, but he wasn't the best player, I'd say, with David Ortiz winning there.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position? The first question is no (no Cy Young awards), second question is no as well for the same reason.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races? The answer to this is definitely yes. His career postseason record is 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA. 1993, 2001, 2002, 2004, and 2007 were all impacted by him. Even if you take 2002 (lost in the NLDS despite an ERA under 2 from Schilling), that's still impressive.

5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime? His best seasons seemed to come after the age of 33, so yes.

6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame? Is Bert Blyleven still not in? Then no.

7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame? Kevin Brown, Bob Welch, and Orel Hershiser are not in the Hall, so no.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards? 216-146 with a 3.46 ERA? 83 complete games and over 3000 strikeouts? Very nice numbers, but I don't know if that's Hall of Fame numbers.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics? He had some arm trouble in the mid-90s, but he never had a "bad" year (except maybe 1994), his statline is relatively consistent.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in? See #6.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close? At least 4 times he had an MVP-type season, 5 if you want to add in 1993. No MVP awards (or Cy Youngs), but he finished 2nd in Cy voting 3 times, and 4th once. Not bad.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame? He's a six-time all-star, and a 7th or 8th all-star type season could be argued. Jim Palmer was a six-time all-star and he's in the Hall, and Lefty Grove also had six appearances. So the answer to that question would be yes.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant? I'd say absolutely yes, looking at his postseason numbers.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? I don't think he really did anything to change the game or have an immense impact. The bloody sock may go down in Red Sox lore, but that would be it.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider? He had some problems with speaking his mind, however he didn't cheat like a lot of others seem to have done. He did do a lot of humanitarian work as well, from the looks of it. It may have been a no decades ago, but it's a yes now.

CONCLUSION: I'll admit that I was thinking he would probably be a good candidate for the Hall originally. After writing this and deeply looking at his stats, as well as the questions above, I don't think that he passes this test. He has pretty nice numbers, and was great in the postseason, but was he ever considered the best, or a true great? It doesn't seem like it. Is he a possible candidate for the Veterans' Committee after we historically look back at the Steroid Era? I would say so, but a candidate now, I would have to pass up on him. I don't think playing another season or two would have helped him either, he needed to have been a more dominant pitcher early in his career to have been considered a Hall of Famer. That being said though, assuming Randy Johnson's a shoo-in, maybe once that happens a door will open for Schilling. But that's a tale to be told later. For now, he can relax as a retired pitcher and not worry about the Hall just yet.

Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
JuTMSY4Legend
506 days ago
Score 4+-
While I accept the theory (this time), I have to disagree with some of the method...

2) There is no question, he was unquestionable the best player on the Phillies for a number of years

8) Schill is 14th on the all-time list in Ks...well behind the leader (as is everyone)...Removing the outlier, he's probably a Tier-2 stikeout leader (With Johnson, Carlton and Clemens amongst tier-1), but of the 13 ahead of him, 8 played longer than schill. All except Blyleven are in the hall

9) Yeah, Clemens was on Steroids...so were some of the best hitters in the game

11) I'd add the disclaimer that Schill's best years were squandered on a crappy team that had a desire to be good, but not great...

13) There answers no, and once again I point the the Phillies

14) I don't like the red sox, but Schilling's impact on baseball history for a team that was cursed and then risked his career to break said curse, seems like a pretty good chunk of baseball lore to me

15) I think its unfair to bring up issues of political belief in that discussion...cheating? Steroids? Drugs? Among other things maybe? But blaming him for being a conservative in the heart of Massachusetts seems kinda mean...
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WizardmanRed-Shirting
506 days ago
Score 3+-
For #15, I never brought his being a conservative up anywhere. I meant more the Gary Thorne incident, as well as a couple other issues with the media. The other answers I see what you're saying. Haven't written an article in a long time, still re-configuring myself.
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JuTMSY4Legend
506 days ago
Score 2+-
Sorry, just my interpretation of what you were going for...he gets critiques in boston a lot for that...and while I generally don't appreciate athletes doing it one way or another (or movie stars...) i think it creates a lot of ill will in Boston...more so than it would anywhere else...
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Niteowl049AAA-er
506 days ago
Score 2+-
No way Schilling goes in the Hall of Fame before Blyleven.
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The PipDiv-I Stud
506 days ago
Score 0+-
The Cy young issue sucks, because who was winning Cy Young's while he was playing in the NL (his best years)? Just those guys from the Braves. Schill lead the league in wins twice in that time. It's a tough luck situation, but should it be considered?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
506 days ago
Score 2+-
Ummm, Pip.... Schilling only recieved votes for the Cy a mere 4 times... That's it. 3 times in the NAL - twice finishing second to his teammate (RJ) and then finishing 4th to Pedro Martinez neither of whom were Atlanta Braves. The other time (AL) he finished second to a unanimous CY for Johan Santana - it wasn't close.

He didn't even recieve a single pity vote in any other season...


I know you love him, but take an honest look at his career. He was merely pretty good and was never "great".
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
506 days ago
Score 2+-
Lamar Hoyt, Jack Morris, Wilbur Wood and Ron Guidry also led their league in wins twice.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
506 days ago
Score 4+-
"For Boston he may have been the best pitcher"


Pedro Martinez and Josh Beckett would like to speak with you...


And Lefty Grove played half of his career before there was an "All-Star Game", he would have easily made 6 or 7 more All-Star games.
Permalink | Reply
RomiezzoLegend
505 days ago
Score 2+-
If he kept himself healthy in 2005, I'm sure he might have been regarded. I would consider him the best pitcher of the 2004 Red Sox roster. He led the league in wins, and had better numbers than Pedro. He pitched 10 more innings than Martinez, had a 3.26 ERA (compared to Pedro's 3.90), a 1.06 WHIP (compared to Pedro's 1.17), and a 21-6 record (compared to Pedro's 16-9 record). Then who did the Sawx have in 2005? Probably Tim Wakefield. Just when Schilling had the opportunity to prove that he was the ace of the rotation, he gets injured. Really unlucky...

He might not have been the best player at his position, but you have to recognize his numbers. Think about it. After the Phillies, Schilling could not be the ace of any rotation he was in due to the fact that there was always someone better than him. Randy Johnson, who was unstoppable (at the time), was also in his prime and got the Cy Young award twice over Schilling. Then, you go to the Red Sox, where Pedro was slowing down on the numbers (compared to his early 2000's stats). Then, he gets injured, but comes back, only with Josh Beckett coming to prove something. Schilling did better than Beckett in 2006 (click here), but that has seemed to be overlooked with the great season that Beckett had in 2007, as well as the couple of seasons in the National League before moving to Boston.

Was he the best pitcher on Boston? For some time, I'd say he was. Is he a Hall of Famer? I honestly don't know. I think with his postseason achievements, as well as looking at his 3116 K's, and how well he did after reaching 30, I'd say he could actually have a shot. I wouldn't say shoe-in, but he'll get in eventually.
Permalink
Smmonroe2Varsity Captain
506 days ago
Score 0+-
I like everything Schill did for the Sawks but I can not stand him. I feel like he has gone well past his welcome here in Boston.
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BarkingclamVarsity
504 days ago
Score 0+-
I think that Schilling is baseball's Paul Henderson. Despite pretty average numbers, Henderson got in the hockey hall of fame for his goal in game eight of the 1972 Summit Series. I think it's entirely possible that Schilling will get in for the bloody sock game (and everybody will ignore that he pitched in two major collapses: game six of the 1993 World Series and game seven of the 2001 series).
Permalink | Reply
WizardmanRed-Shirting
504 days ago
Score 0+-
This article got the main spot on the front page? Wow. Didn't expect that, honestly.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
504 days ago
Score 0+-
Why not? Good research, backed your points well, I would have been surprised if it didn't.
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Macker1283Little Leaguer
504 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree with almost all of your answers except for obviously...your most glaring error...#14. You dont think winning two key playoff games after having surgery on your ankle the morning of the games and propelling the most "cursed" franchise in team sports to winning their first World Series in over 85 years isnt "impacting baseball history"? You gotta be kidding me. Please explain Wizardman your thinking on that one? Are you just anti-Red Sox? I dont understand.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
504 days ago
Score 0+-
"Are you just anti pro-Red Sox? I dont understand. Please explain, Macker, your thinking on that one. Because even Stevie Wonder knows it wasn't blood on the sock.
Permalink | Reply
Macker1283Little Leaguer
504 days ago
Score 0+-
Are you being serious Kelsdad?
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
504 days ago
Score 0+-
Are you?
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
504 days ago
Score 0+-
He colored the sock with a red Sharpie. It wasn't blood. It was the biggest scam pulled off by the biggest scam artist.
Permalink | Reply
Macker1283Little Leaguer
504 days ago
Score 0+-
Ok, you are joking around. I get it.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
504 days ago
Score 0+-
Dude, seriously. You might be the only person in the world who thinks it was blood on the sock.

I thought you were the one joking. You really think it was blood? No, shit? Really?

Wow, that's funnier than Shaq's rap video...
Permalink | Reply
RomiezzoLegend
504 days ago
Score 0+-
Wow, that's funnier than Shaq's rap video That's not really saying much... at least not from my point of view.
Permalink
Macker1283Little Leaguer
503 days ago
Score 0+-
The Hall of Fame tested the sock and proved it was blood. It turned dark red after several weeks, which would also prove it was blood. Not one person claimed it was ketchup except for Charlie Steiner who immediately recanted his statement after the entire world laughed at him. Just like im laughing at you now.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
503 days ago
Score 0+-
thought that was Jim Thorne...
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
503 days ago
Score 0+-
The Hall of Fame never got the sock. Another BS story.

Johnny Damon and Kevin Millar both said publicly Schilling faked it.

I probably shouldn't tell you this, but Santa Clause is fake, too.
Permalink | Reply
Macker1283Little Leaguer
503 days ago
Score 0+-
Do you believe that the moon landing was faked and that George Bush ordered 9/11 as well?
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
503 days ago
Score 0+-
Nice talking to you, Mack. Tell Elvis I said hello.
Permalink | Reply
Mr JoshWaterboy
413 days ago
Score 0+-
Schilling a Hall of Famer? Depends on my mood that day. Funny story: there's a guy in Cleveland who has a sports talk TV show, and at last year's All-Star Game, they were showing the 1997 game in Cleveland, and between innings, the guy was talking to Brian Anderson. They showed a clip where Big Mac kinda flexed and you could see his (inflated) muscles bulge, so the guy asked Brian Anderson about the clusterf**k on Capitol Hill a couple of years back. Brian said that he could see Congress grilling Mac, Palmeiro, and Sosa, but he couldn't figure out why Schilling was there. Anderson said, "I don't know if I should say this, but I've seen Curt Schilling in the shower, and I can tell you, this guy has never taken a steroid in his life!"
Permalink | Reply
Anonymous Fanatic #1
96 days ago
Score 0+-
Barkingclam get your facts straight. Paul Henderson is a canadian legend for scoring the game winning goal but he is not in the hall of fame. As for Schilling it's a toss up. I can see a late hall of fame Rice esque induction. He's one of the most clutch pitchers the game has ever seen. He ma not have the big numbers voters look for but who wouldn't want him pitching on their team in big games? As for not winning cy youngs if Josnon was #1 in the NL in '01-'02, Schilling was definetely 1a. A ridiculous 9.58K/BB ratio in 2002 speaks for itself. In two separate seasons, he nearly had as many wins as walks allowed. That's beyond ridiculous.
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Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User Wizardman | June 22, 2008 | June 2008 | MLB Opinions | Curt Schilling Opinions | Keltner List Opinions

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