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Rawbeezeitz
Just appreciate the Twilight Zone and stop trying to remake or copy it. It was perfect and cannot be duplicated.

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The Curt Schilling Question

by Rawbeezeitz
created March 25, 2009, last edited March 26, 2009
13
Vote

Curt Schilling announced his retirement the other day. As if we didn't know that was going to happen. The only thing that surprised me was that it needed announcing.

Curt has 20 MLB seasons under his belt, 3 World Series rings, an immaculate postseason record, 216 wins, 3,116 strikeouts, and a 3.46 ERA in a hitter's era. So does he get a plaque in Cooperstown?

Here are the arguments for and against induction, followed by my conclusion.

The Argument for Induction:

Curt is one of, if not the best postseason pitchers ever. In 19 starts, he's 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA. In 133.1 IP, he's struck out 120, walked 25, and has a WHIP of 0.968. He was the 1993 NLCS MVP, the 2001 World Series co-MVP, and we all remember The Bloody Sock. In World Series play, he's 4-1, with a 2.06 ERA.



He was a 6 time All-Star, and started the game twice. His 3.46 career ERA came in a highly offensive and steroid influenced era. The League ERA during his career was nearly a run higher (4.41). He's 15th all-time in strikeouts, and 13th all-time in K/9IP. He's got 83 complete games and 20 shutouts. He has the 2nd best strikeout to walk ratio of all-time at 4.38. He had three 20+ win seasons (2001, 2002, 2004). He had eight seasons of 15+ wins. He finished 2nd in Cy Young voting 3 times.

He changed the history of franchises. When he came to Arizona, they won their first World Series in his first full season. When he came to Boston, the Red Sox won their first title in nearly 9 decades, largely thanks to his 21-6 record in the regular season, and his 3-1 record in October.

The Argument Against Induction:

Curt's a phenominal postseason performer, but do 19 games make a Hall of Famer? Two full seasons of dominance (and a few other very good years) weren't good enough to get Roger Maris into Cooperstown. Bret Saberhagen also had two utterly dominant seasons, and he's not in. There's no denying Schilling's place among the best postseason players in the game, but is 19 games worth a ticket to the Hall?

To me, there are two kinds of Hall of Famers. Compilers, and dominators.

Compilers are consistent over long stretches of time. Every year, they get their 17 wins, or 25 homeruns; and over time, they have impressive career numbers. The dominators have stretches of a few seasons in which they obliterate their competition. Think Sandy Koufax's 6 year stretch of unbelievable dominance. And of course, the all-time greats, the Babe Ruths, the Walter Johnsons - they're both compilers and dominators.

But Schilling is neither. His career totals are not overwhelmingly impressive. 216 wins is  very good, but not great. He's 80th in wins, tied with Charlie Hough, and 3 behind Kenny Rogers. Tommy Bond has more wins. David Wells has more wins. Frank Tanana and Jamie Moyer have more wins.

He is 15th in strikeouts all-time, but this is The Age of the K. 3,116 strikeouts are impressive, but when hitters get struck out 100 times a season without batting an eye, is it really that impressive? I'm not saying it's easy, but 3,000 Ks don't mean what they used to. There are 16 members of the 3,000 strikeout club. Before 1998, there were 10. So in 11 years, the club has grown by 60%.

The one stat Schilling has compiled is home runs allowed. He's given up 347. That's 26th all-time.

Schilling wasn't a dominator, either. No Cy Young Awards reside in his trophy case. He never led his League in ERA, only led in WHIP twice, only led in strikeouts twice, only led in wins twice.

He finished 2nd in Cy Young voting three times. Two of those times, the winner received all the 1st place votes. In 2001, Schilling received two 1st place votes, compared to Randy Johnson's 30.

His early career is full of inconsistency. For years, he was a journeyman, traded from Boston to Baltimore to Houston to Philadelphia. He was great in '92 and '93, then returned to his inconsistent ways before emerging as a #2 type pitcher in his last years with the Phillies.



Of his 20 seasons, only 10 didn't suck.

Conclusion:

Schilling is a great pitcher, and his place in Philly, Diamondback and Red Sox history/lore is secure. If there were a Hall of Fame just for postseason play, he'd be a first-ballotter. But he does not belong in the real Hall of Fame. He lacks big career numbers, and he lacks individual years of dominance. He was never the best pitcher in his League. And when he was 2nd best, it was a distant 2nd. He has three World Series rings, but always on teams with complimentary elite pitchers like Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Josh Beckett.

Jack Morris has 254 wins and is not a Hall of Famer. Bert Blyleven, well everyone knows that story. There are too many pitchers ahead of him to justify his inclusion before theirs.

But, Schilling will probably get in because of his postseason play, his high profile, and his World Series rings. And I won't protest or be outraged. I'll just quietly disagree, and engage in the argument when it is presented.

Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
Pittsburgh GunnyMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 2+-
Out of all the Halls of Fame that are out there Baseball is the one that seems to get too caught in the minutia of statistics. Stats are important but they aren't the end all and be all of an athletes career.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 4+-
True, but it's also very easy to isolate an individual player's performance with stats, at least compared to other sports. QBs don't throw TD passes without someone catching the ball for them.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
275 days ago
Score 2+-
Baseball has traditionally been a sport that pays a lot of attention to it's stats. The numbers are known by the fans as much as the players names.


715, 61, 4,191, 56, 383, 511, 755, .406 - I'm sure even the more casual of baseball fans on this site knows exactly what these numbers represent.


Numbers are the language of baseball.
Permalink
Mvicks21JV Squad
275 days ago
Score 1+-
Great article! I have always thought Shilling was not a HOFamer, but after reading this I am even more sure now. If you are tied with Charlie Hough for career wins, you do not belong in Cooperstown. Argument over for me. But I do think he will get in eventually. He will have to wait 10 - 15 years and the year he is elected will be a down year for Hall candidates.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 1+-
Well there's more to HOFers than wins. Koufax has 165 wins, and many consider him to be one of the best. But the win total of 215 is not Hall of Fame worthy by itself.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 0+-
216^
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JuTMSY4Legend
275 days ago
Score 5+-
When does Jamie Moyer's Hall of Fame campaign start?
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 5+-
When he starts a blog?
Permalink
CheezerAll-Star
275 days ago
Score 3+-
Did you hear what Bert Blyleven said? That he deserves to get in before Schilling or Moyer.
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
275 days ago
Score 1+-
I think it starts right after Julio Franco's.
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
275 days ago
Score 1+-
And Blyleven is right. He should be in before Jim Ric...oh, wait...too late.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
275 days ago
Score 1+-
Blyleven should be in. I am puzzled by what is keeping him out.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 2+-
I think Blyleven should be in BUT, he did lose 250 games (10th most). Over his career, his ERA is only 0.60 lower than League ERA. Only 2 time All-Star with 0 starts, highest in Cy Young voting was 3rd, only in top 10 CY voting 4 times, 10th most earned runs allowed.


People who don't vote for Blyleven probably view him as just a guy who pitched for a long time, and built up good numbers (and bad numbers) without ever being that amazing. Personally, I think being durable is underrated in baseball, especially in pitchers.


He also rubs some people the wrong way with how much he self-promotes.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 1+-
And he's also got good postseason numbers, so anyone who votes for Schilling but not Blyleven has some 'splaining to do. 5-1 postseason record, 2.47 ERA, 1.077 WHIP, 2 WS rings.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
274 days ago
Score 0+-
I think durability is underrated as well. And I can forgive the losses, as Blyleven pitched at a time when pitchers were expected to throw until they either (a) couldn't throw anymore or (b) were taking a really severe beating.


Like many of his contemporaries, BB logged 240+ IP every year, and had more than a handful of 270+, 280+ IP seasons as well. With this much work, it's no wonder he has a lot of wins/losses. Pitchers today often get spared losses because they are not around at the end of the game. Blyleven has more complete games than losses in many of his seasons....so he had to stick it out and take the loss instead of turning it over to his 'pen.


Considering the era in which he pitched and the comparitive numbers he 'compiled' (a term I hate...again, durability is underrated)...I think he should be in the hall.


And I think the self-promoting is a recent phenomenon, coming from having been overlooked all these years. I don't fault him for this. I think he has a valid case, and he can make a decent argument for himself. He can compare numbers. That's what we (I?) do when I consider these things.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
274 days ago
Score 0+-
Ooops - make that "more complete games than wins" - GRRR
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
275 days ago
Score 1+-
Such a tough call. Many compelling reasons, but I lean toward non-HOF for Schill. I think he was a top pitcher for a few years, and that's the story. If he had better consistency, and more "solid" (i.e. 15 win seasons), then it would be a different story.


The explosion of the 3,000 K club is another factor that works against him. When Carlton and Ryan entered that club, I think there were only three other pitchers with that many. Now that's impressive. I agree with Rawb that the 3K number isn't as impressive as it used to be. But both men that I mentioned also have over 300 wins...


Schilling was a very good pitcher who had a nose for the spotlight. He didn't wilt under pressure and he had a bit of a throwback mentality (those complete games).


And if he does get into the hall, I will support that. There are more than a few names who are in there now that I disagreed with. What's one more?
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 1+-
Ryan was the 4th member, Carlton was the 5th. Seaver beat Carlton by 11 days.


http://en.wi...ut_club#Club


But you're right. I didn't even look that far back to see the exponential expansion of the club. Walter Johnson was the only member until Bob Gibson in '74, then Gaylor Perry in '78, Ryan in '80, Seaver and Carlton in '81, Ferguson Jenkins in '82, Don Sutton in '83, Phil Neikro in '84, Blyleven in '86.
Permalink
Mvicks21JV Squad
275 days ago
Score 2+-
But like you said, Koufax dominated...Shilling never did.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score -1+-
Great article. Original concept, damning evidence but I can't help thinking I've seen this somewhere before... except every sentence wasn't a paragraph. Oh well, regurgitation is always better the second time, right?!

One note: About Schilling's HR allowed totals - it can easily be argued that Schilling gave up so many HRs because he wasn't afraid to challenge hitters - and for that he should be commended, not bashed. Plus I'd be willing to bet that about 60% of the HRs he allowed were solo shots. He always came at the big hitters when the bases were empty.

I still hold one thing against him - his bitching and moaning and calling people "classless" when Ben Davis bunted for a hit to break up his no-no. What a pussy. A hit is a hit, Curt. It's a hitters job to get on base any way they can, even with a bunt, you whiny bitch (that "bitch" comment was directed at Curt, not you Rawb).
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 0+-
He wouldv'e had his no-no had he not shaken off Varitek's sign in Oakland in '07.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 0+-
I still enjoy how Josh Beckett yelled to Clay Buchholz and gave Schilling shit overheard by National TV cameras/microphones when Lester got his no-no... It was scathing (and telling) more than it was "funny". (Because even Schilling's teammates know how much of a douche he is)
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
275 days ago
Score 2+-
Yeah, I remember the bunt thing. This was an amusing kind of deal, where Schill complained about it as though there was some rulebook (that only he had read) that stated this was bush league. A hit is a hit, no matter how small. No team wants to get no-hit. A guy like Cesar Tovar (who, I believe, broke up five no-hitters in his career) can certainly understand Davis' motivation.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
275 days ago
Score 2+-
A hit is a hit, no matter how small.


Horton Hears a Bunt?
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
274 days ago
Score 0+-
Haha...nice catch.
Permalink
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Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User Rawbeezeitz | March 25, 2009 | March 2009 | Baseball Opinions | Boston Red Sox Opinions | MLB Opinions | Philadelphia Phillies Opinions | Arizona Diamondbacks Opinions | Curt Schilling Opinions

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