armchairgm
all sports, all you
+ Add Friends
You are not logged-in.
Sign Up - Log In
Main Page
Sports
Write
Articles
Hot Links
Images
Meet People
Fun
Explore
MLB - NFL - NBA - NHL - College Basketball - College Football - Soccer - Nascar - Other
Article - Locker Room Discussion
All Articles - New Articles - Today's Articles
Submit a Link - Approve Links
Picture Game - Ratings - Polls - Pick Game - Quiz Game - Spring Silliness
Random Page - Random Image - Random Fan

About the Author

Sportsbrief
sportsbrief.blogspot.com

More By Sportsbrief

The Sports Brief's 2009 NBA Mock Draft
5 votes, 2 comments
2009 Boston Red Sox pre-season report card
15 votes, 12 comments
Why BJ Penn will beat Georges St. Pierre
9 votes, 20 comments
View All

Other recent contributors

Make this page better by editing it.

Other recent voters

If you like the article, vote for it.
Edit
Page history Discuss pageWhat links here

Sox Gave Away Manny

by Sportsbrief
created August 01, 2008, last edited February 10, 2009
21
Vote

Why do teams make trades? To get better. In the case of a contender, they do it to solidify a playoff birth or, in the Angels case, make a serious run at a title. For a struggling team you trade in order to get better in the future, take a shot at some young guys. (Indians getting Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon comes to mind.) These are why teams make moves at the deadline. (Note: NBA and NFL teams often make moves to dump salary; last time I checked, there wasn't a salary cap in MLB.) This is what frustrates me most about the Manny trade. The Red Sox did not get better, in fact they got worse.

Manny Ramirez has been a huge headache for this team the past few weeks, maybe longer. I understand some of his actions have been inexcusable, but that's exactly how I would describe this trade. The Red Sox essentially traded Manny Ramirez, Brandon Moss, and Craig Hansen for Jason Bay. You serious!? There were a total of 6 players involved in the 3 team deal between the Sox, Dodgers, and Pirates. How did Boston manage to give up the best player AND 2 prospects? Unbelievable. They got relief help right? Nope. Same bullpen (minus Hansen, which isn't a bad thing) and now you got Jason Bay in LF with no Manny. Before getting into how Bay will replace Ramirez I want to look more at the deal itself. Just when you thought what the Sox gave up was bad enough, how about this... they're paying the rest of Manny's deal too. Wow. Why not throw Jon Lester or Dustin Pedroia in the trade too.

Calling this a "trade" is unfair. The Sox simply "got rid" of Ramirez. A trade implies both teams (or all three teams) giving something up to get something. The Dodgers traded a 3B who doesn't play and a AA pitcher for Ramirez. The Pirates traded Jason Bay for two young pitchers, a young 3B, and a young OF. The Sox panicked. They wanted to get rid of Manny, and made that abundantly clear, which doesn't exactly help the value. Everyone knew Boston was looking to get rid of Manny any way they could. So why offer them anything, or better yet, why not ask for a couple prospects to boot? Done and done.

Part of this "deal" was having the two club options for Manny at $20 million a pop be waived. OK, so he is playing 2 months for a playoff run/his next contract. Why does he have to do that in LA? I'd take Manny's crap for 2 more, hopefully 3 more months with a legitimate shot at winning back-to-back World Series. People say how do you know he would play for them? The guy wants $100 million over 4 years, how is he going to do that sitting on the bench. Is he not trying now? Really? In July, Manny is hitting .347 (the highest month of the season for him) with 4 HR and 16 RBI. Those numbers are better than J.D. Drew's and Mike Lowell's. Are those guys tanking it? Let me guess Lowell is giving up on the team. Come on. Pedroia is the hottest hitter in the planet and he's only hitting .003 points higher than Manny in July.

Jason Bay now finds himself in the same spot as Omer Epps did when he signed on for Major League II, replacing Wesley Snipes as Willie Mayes Hayes. Bay is a nice player, don't get me wrong, but the Sox are asking a ton from him. Here's a guy who plays in front of family and friends for the worst team in the NL Central. The Pirates could not be further from the Boston Red Sox. Bay has a grand total of 0 post season at-bats. Manny has 24 post season home runs. That's a record. Hey Jason Bay, no pressure, but you need to replace a 12-time All-Star, 500 Home Run Club member, World Series MVP, and future Hall of Famer with 2 months to go in a pennant race in the most baseball crazy city in the world. At least the Sox helped their bullpen and got a couple prospects back... I forgot, they didn't.

In the end I feel like the Red Sox got caught with their pants down, and went from a team with World Series aspirations to a team that's really hoping they can get in the playoffs. A lot has changed. How can the front office honestly turn down a Mark Teixeira for Kevin Youkilis and Craig Hansen deal, yet sign off on a Jason Bay for Manny Ramirez, Craig Hansen, and Brandon Moss. I can't describe it. They see the Angels getting much better, the Yankees making moves to improve themselves, even the White Sox reaching out for some help. Theo and the crew were so caught up in throwing Manny away that they forgot to actually help the team. Sure they don't have to see what the new quote from ESPNDeportes is today and the team can now have picnics together and go to water parks, but they'll feel it on the field. You think David Ortiz won't get intentionally walked every chance they get? These guys are supposed to be pros. It's not the ideal situation, but it was their best chance to win.

I hope I'm wrong here, but I don't see the Red Sox making the post season this year. Even with the Rays not making a move, they didn't get worse like the Sox. Tampa and New York will take the division in the final 2 months of the season with one of them squaring off with the Angels in the ALCS, while the new Sox have sleep overs together watching the games on TV.

-Rich Keefe

If you like our stuff check out more at www.sportsbrief.blogspot.com and send us an e-mail at sportsbrief@gmail.com


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
MegECass110AAA-er
484 days ago
Score 2+-
I wouldn't say "gave away" as much as kicked out. The fact they had to give up Hansen and Moss in order to make the trade work is a testament to just how badly they wanted him gone. They did everything possible in order to get rid of him.
Permalink | Reply
DrpatriotAll-American
484 days ago
Score 0+-
I can't believe it.

The Red Sox got hosed, hard. We gave up Manny and prospects for an inferior outfielder.

I just can't freaking believe it.
Permalink | Reply
Davis21wylieMVP
484 days ago
Score 7+-
No we didn't. Moss and Hansen aren't prospects, they're just filler. Bay is as good as Manny this year when you account for defense (plus hustle and distractions, etc.), and instead of having a Manny-sized hole to fill over this offseason, we control Bay for 2009, for a much cheaper salary even. The main point is that Manny had to go, it had become too toxic chemistry-wise. That we got essentially equal value going forward in Bay was a coup, truth be told.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
484 days ago
Score 1+-
I'd sat you're pretty right Davis...

Hansen and Moss aren't special and Kels is right about their careers (though I'm not as optimistic about hansen)

Bay's 31 and has 1 more year, Manny's 36 and has between 2 months and 2 years...odds are after this they'd probably let him walk...so would you prefer Bay or 2 draft picks?
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
484 days ago
Score 1+-
Thankyou, Davis, finally nice to hear a Sox fan dis one of their own people. Hansen will eventually get it together and will become a mid level closer, Moss' skill set projects as a fourth outfielder at best, and a Triple A tweener at worst. And, a year from now, all the Sox fans who criticized this deal will be crying in their milk with the thought of Bay being two months away from free agency. Got news for you, DrPatriot, the team who got hosed in all this was the Dodgers.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
484 days ago
Score 0+-
not if they win the world series (say what you want about it happening, but the fact of the matter is, if it works, its probably worth it)
Permalink
Kingsrule41JV Squad
484 days ago
Score 5+-
Um...

Bay: 72 Rs / 22 HRs / 64 RBIs* / 7 SBs / .282

Manny: 66 Rs / 20 HRs / 68 RBIs / 1 SB / .299

  • And Bay didn't have Ellsbury, Pedroia, and Youkilis on front of him all year...

Once Manny started tanking games and making it clear to the world he wanted no part of the Red Sox, he took away any and all leverage they may have had. EVERYONE knew the situation in Boston and EVERYONE knew Manny HAD to be traded. He would have been too much of a distraction on and off the field in such a tough division.

With everyone knowing all this the Red Sox somehow managed to get a player virtually Manny's production equivalent minus all of the baggage!

And they are being ripped for it?

I swear Boston fans complain worse then any others.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
484 days ago
Score 0+-
if you thinking manny was tanking in games your a fool...
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
484 days ago
Score 1+-
you're*
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
483 days ago
Score 1+-
Did you see that pinch hit at-bat in Yankee Stadium? If that wasn't tanking, I don't know what is.
Permalink
Pittsburgh GunnyMajor Leaguer
484 days ago
Score 1+-
As a Pirates fan, I can say that Jason Bay will be consistent and unflappable. What has to be determined is if he can produce in the big situation which was not required here in Pittsburgh.
Permalink | Reply
CrackajgDraft Pick
484 days ago
Score 3+-
I find it surprising that none of the headlines have read: 'Bay Headed To The Bay State'
Permalink | Reply
Pittsburgh GunnyMajor Leaguer
484 days ago
Score 1+-
I rather liked that one Crackajg.
Permalink
CrackajgDraft Pick
484 days ago
Score 1+-
Thank you! One of my few skills is quality title creation.
Permalink
DNLLegend
484 days ago
Score 3+-
If I'm a Red Sox fan, I like this trade:
  • Bay is probably as good as Manny at this point, and he's cheap ($7.5 m) next year.
  • Manny was going to cost the Red Sox $20m next year (minus the sunk cost of a buyout, which I can't seem to find details on). That wasn't going to happen, so the Red Sox would have been in the market for a new LF. And the market is thin there.
  • The Rays were probably waiting in the wings to take Bay.
The Red Sox gave up two B-ish prospects to avoid two problems: not having a good++ LF for 2009, and the 2008 Rays becoming arguably better than they are.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
484 days ago
Score 0+-
Manny's contract ends this year, the two remaining "options" are controlled by the team, thus there is no buyout. When there is a buyout, its either a mutual option or a player option. This explains why you can't find anything on it, Dan.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
484 days ago
Score 1+-
That's incorrect. A club option can still require a buyout. Ken Griffey Jr.'s 16 mil option for next year is a club option with a 4 million dollar buyout
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
484 days ago
Score 0+-
The buyout was a clause written into his deal as a payment for waiving his no-trade. Jason Giambi has a similar clause, as does Adam Dunn. The money the Red Sox sent to LA was to pay the remainder of Manny's contract, it wasn't to pay his buyout. The Dodgers wouldn't have made the deal if there was a buyout.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
484 days ago
Score 1+-
I have no idea if Ramirez has a buyout clause in his contract or not (I'm led to believe he doesn't) but club options and buyout clauses aren't mutually exclusive
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
484 days ago
Score 0+-
You're right, JuT, but it has to be written into the contract.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
484 days ago
Score 0+-
I disagree with you on the Rays thing, Dan. Clubhouse and attitude wise, Bay is an upgrade, and on the field it's not as big a difference as people think. The Rays just guaranteed themselves a third place finish by not doing anything.
Permalink | Reply
Anonymous Fanatic #1
484 days ago
Score 0+-
Just because Bay and Ramirez have similar Home Runs and RBIs this season, doesn't make it a wash. Come on people. Bay plays in Pittsburgh, never even been in a playoff chase, let alone series. He's hitting .216 with runners in scoring position, and there will be more pressure on this guy then he'll even know what to do with.

How can it be a good trade when you give up the best player and prospects. Like many of you I'm not saying Moss and Hansen were gonna be great in Boston, but why not use them to get bullpen help. The Sox still need that, but they got so into dealing Manny they forgot to do that.

Angels, Rays, Yankees, White Sox are thrilled by the deal. That's not a good sign.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
483 days ago
Score 1+-
Everyone in the AL is thrilled by the fact that they don't have to face Manny anymore. But how the White Sox and Yankees feel about this deal doesn't make a bit of difference.


Manny is slugging .529. Bay is slugging .519. Manny is doing that with David Ortiz behind him most of the time. Notice how much Manny heated up when Papi came back into the lineup. If Bay gets that kind of protection in a right-handed hitter's park, watch out.


A player isn't clutch until they're in a clutch situation. Conversely, a player isn't unclutch until they're in a clutch situation. Give the friggin guy a chance.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
483 days ago
Score 0+-
That's exactly right, Rawb, if the Sox had ended up with a couple minor leaguers, then, yeah, Manny was a giveaway. Bay does not suck. Red Sox fans will LOVE this guy, they'll forget about Manny by this time tomorrow.
Permalink
SportsbriefVarsity
483 days ago
Score 1+-
To the gentlemen that said Manny was protected by Ortiz. Sorry it's actually the exact opposite. Good try though. Manny hasn't hit in front of Ortiz since 2004, so Ortiz will feel the effects of the loss of Manny.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
483 days ago
Score 0+-
My bad, brain fart. Nevertheless, having Ortiz in front of him is an unsailable advantage. And guys like Lowell, Drew and Youk hitting 5th doesn't hurt either.
Permalink
SportsbriefVarsity
484 days ago
Score 1+-
my bad, that was me above.
Permalink | Reply
SportsbriefVarsity
484 days ago
Score 2+-
The thing that bothers me the most here is that ultimately, the Sox waved Manny's club options anyway. All he ever wanted from the beginning was to know his status and where he stood with the organization. If he wanted out and they wanted him gone after this year, why couldn't they keep him in Boston for the remainder of the season, tell Manny and Boras they would waive the options and let him walk, and in return get the draft picks that come with it. Then Manny would know he's playing the final months for his next big contract, and at the same time, you keep him batting cleanup and protecting Ortiz.

I agree with Rich that while Bay's numbers are comparable to Manny's this year, it's his presence in the lineup that is an irreplaceable intangible. Mike Scoscia intentionally walked him in the first inning of a game out West a few weeks back. I think Bay will be good, but it remains to be seen if he can play in Boston during a pennant race and/or in the postseason. With Manny, he has the most postseason homeruns in MLB history and was a proven commodity down the stretch and in October. Just look at the numbers.

-Bess
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
483 days ago
Score 2+-
The homerun total for Manny is a product of his massive amount of playoff games playing for Cleveland and Boston. He's not Mr. October. He has a .269 career playoff average. He's a very good post-season player, but not amazingly so.


And you make it seem as though you knew more about the Manny vs. management situation than the Sox front office did. I doubt that. If there had been a simple solution, I think Theo and associates would have been able to find it.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
483 days ago
Score 1+-
13 of Manny's 24 postseason HR actually were with Cleveland.
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #2
483 days ago
Score 0+-
You're on point Sportsbrief. This was Manny's walk year. He would have eventually shut up and produced with the contract being his main motivation. Jason Bay produces similar numbers in terms of HR, RBIs and such. But he does not replace the value that Manny had in protecting Ortiz. The only way we can judge this trade is by what Jason Bay does in the postseason, especially in key situations. We all know what Manny would do, hate him or love him. But Bay has to prove himself in the postseason.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
484 days ago
Score 0+-
The Sox are a far better team in the clubhouse, and if anyone doesn't think that doesn't translate to the field, well....
Permalink | Reply
SportsbriefVarsity
483 days ago
Score 1+-
So Manny's .298/20/68 and .398 OPB and .529 SLG didn't? Nor did the fact that the Sox were top 5 in ALL major offensive categories in the American League aside from triples, including 1st in OBP and 2nd in OPS? I'm pretty sure the bullpen and inconsistent starting pitching from Beckett and a 5th starter (Bucholz) is the reason the Sox are trailing in the AL East. Maybe they should have addressed those concerns and not focused solely on dealing Manny. Now they no longer have the guy who had the most homeruns and 2nd most RBI's. But they still have those pitching woes.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
483 days ago
Score 1+-
The Sox were also second in run differential behind the Cubs, but somehow couldn't find ways to win the amount of games that figure would imply they should. Weird how that works out. The Sox offense has been good, but it's also been extremely inconsistent (remember nearly getting no-hit the other night?). And the Pirates have scored 5 fewer runs than the Red Sox this season in fewer games, and with a pitcher in the lineup.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
483 days ago
Score 2+-
Manny: .298/20/68/.398/.529 in a hitters park.

Bay: .292/22/64/.375/.519 in a pitcher's park, AND with no lineup protection.

I fail to see how the Sox got screwed in all this, if anything, the Dodgers did.
Permalink | Reply
SportsbriefVarsity
483 days ago
Score 1+-
Yeah Bay had a lot of pressure on him too. How do the Dodgers get screwed when they give up a 3B (who doesn't play) and a AA pitcher? Matt Kemp led LA with 12 home runs. I think adding Manny is a pretty nice pierce for the playoff push. Anyone who doesn't see that well...
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
483 days ago
Score 0+-
The Dodgers didn't get Manny to make a "playoff push", they got him to get to the Series. If they Dodgers don't get at least get to the NLCS, then they got screwed. And they're getting two draft picks next year to replace the one's they lost, so that's a wash.
Permalink | Reply
SportsbriefVarsity
483 days ago
Score 0+-
So if the draft picks are a wash, explain to me how the Dodgers got screwed? They aren't even paying for Manny. Good lord. It's free Manny... but according to Kelsdad they got screwed. Interesting.
Permalink | Reply
AmphibiousSportsDuoVarsity
483 days ago
Score 0+-
Manny is going to play out there, and I don't mean show up. Manny on one leg with Pedro's creepy midget on his back is a better hitter than Andruw Jones this year, so "screwed" isn't even an option in the equation.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
483 days ago
Score 0+-
So, if the Dodgers are home watching the postseason, it's still a good trade for them?
Permalink | Reply
SportsbriefVarsity
483 days ago
Score 1+-
It's August 1st. It's a good trade for them right now. Obviously it will be looked at differently on Oct. 1st. At least they're making a serious run at this thing. The team they had before would have missed out anyway, in my opinion.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
483 days ago
Score 1+-
On paper and by the numbers this deal is a loss for the Red Sox. But the game isn't played on paper, or in a calculator. It's played on a field, by men. And those men voted 23 to 1 to TRADE Manny. At the very least, everyone in that clubhouse is a bit more relaxed. And judging by the way they've played the past week, they needed some form of relaxation in order to refocus on playing baseball.


Here's another state: Jason Bay's missed 2 games this year. And to my knowledge neither of those were due to being upset or unhappy.


Some more Jason Bay stats:


Teammates slapped in public: 0

Traveling secretaries shoved: 0
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
483 days ago
Score 0+-
Another stat^
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
483 days ago
Score 1+-
The players voted 23-1 for Manny to slap Youkilis, I got his back on that one.
Permalink
SportsbriefVarsity
483 days ago
Score 1+-
That's one thing I agree with you on Kels.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
483 days ago
Score -1+-
To whoever went through and minused every comment Kelsdad made in this post: WTF?
Permalink | Reply
AmphibiousSportsDuoVarsity
483 days ago
Score 0+-
If a guy's not hustling/trying it's an affront to his teammates, coaches, fans, et al. With that said, does anyone think there's not going to be a big AB for Bay, where Sox fans are going to think to themselves, 'I wish that was Manny at the plate.'?
Permalink | Reply
The PipDiv-I Stud
482 days ago
Score 0+-
This trada is worse than the Gagne deal, I hope it works out exactly the same.  ;)

(Player blows, Sox win WS)

Chemistry is important. The chemistry between Papi and Manny was a key component to their being one of the most dangerous 3-4 combo's in our time. You don't split up a tandem like that. You ride the f'er out until the season ends. We did win TWO world series with this clubhouse cancer.
Permalink | Reply
The PipDiv-I Stud
482 days ago
Score 0+-
Oh and Manny is not a bad fielder. That is complete media driven bs. He is a good fielder.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
482 days ago
Score 0+-
What's BS is blindly faithful Sox fans believing Manny is god. Manny's a bad fielder, and a clubhouse cancer. The chances of Boston winning the Series this year just improved, not weakened. Wake up.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
482 days ago
Score 1+-
In Fenway, Manny had much less ground to cover...plus he's played with good fielders in Johnny Damon and Coco Crisp/Jacoby Ellsbury and (to his credit) he knows how balls bounce of fenway (Mostly because he plays there, 70 times a year, for the last 8 years...which doesn't make him good, but it makes him not stupid)
Permalink
Baltimoresports247All-American
481 days ago
Score 0+-
how could you possibly say that their chances to win a WS have improved after they lost the most prolific hitter in the past twenty years? where's the logic in that?
Permalink
Baltimoresports247All-American
481 days ago
Score 0+-
i guess i should have said "most prolific right handed hitter in the past twenty years"
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
482 days ago
Score 0+-
Last night in the Dodgers game, Chris Burke lined a ball past Angel Berroa at shortstop which hit the infield dirt on its first bounce then rolled to the wall, between Manny and Andruw Jones. Manny and Andruw were just jogging after the ball, and easy play for a little leaguer, but for two bad outfielders, an impossible play.

Manny played the LF wall at Fenway as well as anyone, but after 400 or so career home games, he should. Even Jim Rice was a good OF after awhile. In any other park, Manny's a joke. An even bigger joke is Jones, he may be the most overrated centerfielder ever. He is freaking pitiful.

Man, he really went downhill after getting off 'roids, didn't he?
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
482 days ago
Score 2+-
off 'roids, on potato chips...same difference
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
482 days ago
Score 0+-
And his tats, must be carrying around 15 pounds of ink.
Permalink | Reply
Add your Comment
ArmchairGM welcomes all comments. If you don't want to be anonymous, Register or Login. It's free
Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User Sportsbrief | August 1, 2008 | August 2008 | MLB Opinions | Manny Ramirez Opinions | Brandon Moss Opinions | Craig Hansen Opinions | Jason Bay Opinions | Los Angeles Dodgers Opinions | Pittsburgh Pirates Opinions | Boston Red Sox Opinions

Don't Miss

Phillies World Series 2009: A Year Later, and They Still Don't Want Us
Sorry, But I'm Not Sorry
2009 NHL Preview
In Which Ricketts Wins World Series
2009 Week 3: Let’s Talk About Your Favorite NFL Team

In the News

Hey ArmchairGM users! Want to help the admins update this news section? Click here to help us out.

Comments of the Day

0 LaDanian Tomlinson (check the QB rating)
0 Wheres Vinny Testeverde?
0 Lou, you said it all......Mickey Cochrane wasn"t j...

Play the Quiz Game

Which of colelge football teams did George Steinbrenner not serve as an assitant coach for?

New Articles

Best African-American Quarterback Ever?
Ken Caminiti: National League's 1996 MVP
Winter Olympics 2010
Highlights from Dubai 7's
Triple Crown Winner Lou Gehrig: No MVP

Retrieved from "http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Article:Sox_Gave_Away_Manny"

This page was last modified 17:04, 2 August 2008. Content is available under the GFDL.

Main Page About Special Pages Help Terms of Use Advertise