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LouGehrig
I have been a Yankees fan for many years. Thanks to what has occurred during the last few years, I am beginning to wonder.

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Schilling and Mussina Are Not Hall of Famers

by LouGehrig
created June 21, 2008, last edited February 10, 2009
11
Vote


by Harold Friend

When was the last time you heard anyone claim that Allie Reynolds should be in the Hall of Fame? That’s right. Probably never. Allie Reynolds won 182 games, lost 107, and saved 49 over a career that spanned 12 seasons. In each of those years, Reynolds won at least 11 games, or as is stated in the 21st century, he won in “double figures” for twelve consecutive seasons. Reynolds was 7-2 with 4 saves in six World Series (1947, 1949-53), all of which the Yankees won.

Some of Curt Schilling's Accomplishments:

Curt Schilling’s career may be over. If it is, Schilling will have won 216 games, lost 146, and saved 22 over a 20-year career, but he didn’t work much until his third season. Not including his first two seasons, in 18 years, Schilling won at least 20 games three times, and won in double figures ten times. In four World Series (1993 with the Phillies, 2001 with the Diamondbacks, and 2004 and 2007 with the Red Sox), he was 4-1.

Top Pitcher:

When Allie Reynolds pitched for the Yankees, he was clearly the ace of the staff in 1947 and 1952, and the second or third best pitcher behind Vic Raschi and Eddie Lopat in 1949, 1950, and 1951. Curt Schilling was the Phillies’ ace most of his years with the Phillies, but the Phillies pitchers behind Schilling were not close to Raschi or Lopat. When Curt was with the Diamondbacks, Randy Johnson was the ace, and when Schilling joined the Red Sox, there were Pedro Martinez and Josh Beckett.

There is no question that in his peak seasons, which interestingly occurred in the latter part of his career, Schilling was dominating, but he had many earlier seasons in which he was pedestrian. It doesn’t matter if Schilling is considered better than Allie Reynolds or if he were the ace when on the same staff as Johnson and then Pedro and Beckett. Neither Schilling nor Reynolds belongs in the Hall of Fame, which leads to Mike Mussina.

Mike Mussina:

Schilling has won at least 20 games three times, Reynolds won 20 games in 1952, and Mike has yet to do so. Mussina has won in double figures 17 of his 18 Major League seasons. Over a 162 game schedule, Baseball-Reference estimates that he averages 17-9, compared to Reynolds’ 16-9 and Schilling’s 14-9, but games won is not one of the better statistical measurements of a pitcher’s effectiveness. Mussina is 260-149 with no saves. In the World Series, he is 1-1.

Allie Reynolds pitched two no-hitters in 1951. He led the American League in ERA once, in strikeouts twice, in shutouts twice, and in adjusted ERA once. He would have won the Cy Young Award in 1952, but it wasn’t created until 1956. Curt Schilling led his league in wins twice, in winning percentage once, and in strikeouts twice. Mussina led the league in wins once, in winning percentage once, and in shutouts once.

Mussina and Ted Lyons:

Mussina is tied in career wins with Hall of Famer Ted Lyons, who pitched for the Chicago White Sox from 1923-1946. Lyons won at least 20 games twice, but from 1931-1946, he won as many as 15 games only once, usually winning between 10 and 14 games. Mussina was Lyon’s equal, but it is wrong to conclude that since Lyons is in the Hall of Fame, Mussina should be in the Hall of Fame. Lyons does not belong.

Tommy John won 288 games in a 26-year career. He had three 20 win seasons, led the league in winning percentage once, in shutouts three times, and being the league’s oldest player twice. Bert Blyleven had 287 wins, but he won at least 20 games only once. He led the league in strikeouts once, and in shutouts three times. Finally, Jim Kaat won 283 games over a career that spanned about 25 seasons, although Kaat hung on too long. He led the league in wins once, and in shutouts once. All three were fine pitchers, but they dominated for a brief time.

Sandy Koufax Provides Perspective:

Sandy Koufax pitched for only 12 seasons. Because of the bonus rule in effect when he signed with Brooklyn, Koufax could not be sent to the Minors. The result was that he worked only about 100 innings in his first two seasons, but later, Koufax dominated. He won three Cy Young Awards when only one was given for both leagues, one MVP, led the league in ERA five consecutive seasons, in wins three times, in winning percentage twice, in strikeouts four times, in shutouts three times, and adjusted ERA twice.

A Fair Comparison:

Is it fair to compare Reynolds, Schilling, and Mussina to Koufax? You bet it is when one is discussing the Hall of Fame. Koufax dominated on the mound, which translated into fantastic statistics, and it must be remembered that Juan Marichal was in the league when Koufax had his dominating seasons. Neither Reynolds, Schilling, nor Mussina came close to Koufax’s domination, which is why they are not Hall of Famers.

Reference:

[www.baseball-reference.com Baseball-Reference]


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
Davis21wylieMVP
508 days ago
Score 2+-
That's okay, Loggins and Messina aren't Hall of Famers, either.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
508 days ago
Score 1+-
I plussed you, but I should SO minus you for that!
Permalink
Niteowl049AAA-er
508 days ago
Score 3+-
I still think Blyleven should have been in the Hall of Fame years ago. When a pitcher with 150 wins is in and Blyleven with 287 isn't in something is wrong. Blyleven didn't get the publicity that players in New York and the biggest markets got. He didn't play in a big market till the very end of his career.
Permalink | Reply
Jerjets11JV Squad
507 days ago
Score 0+-
I totally agree, regarding Blyleven. Not famous or respected enough for Hall? I believe he had/has a lot of fans.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
508 days ago
Score 3+-
How'd you write an entire article about Curt Schilling's Hall of Fame Status w/o mentioning Strike Outs?

And its almost ridiculous to mention wins...Schilling topped 300 Ks with the Phils twice...

Oh, did I mention those 2 Phillies teams sucked?
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
508 days ago
Score 1+-
and he won 32 games with those two teams...pretty much being the bright spot beside scott Rolen...
Permalink
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
508 days ago
Score 0+-
Because it's not about strikeouts. The article acknowledges Schillng's great years when he was older, but overall, he is merely close.
Permalink
LASportsblogAAA-er
508 days ago
Score 0+-
Is Smoltz more probable to make the HoF? Or should he be added to this discussion?
Permalink | Reply
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
508 days ago
Score 0+-
Smoltz is different because he was a closer as well as a starter. He is borderline, but will probably make it. He was certainly better than Mussina and more dominating. Schilling was better when he had his best seasons and for a few seasons, more dominating than Smoltz.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
508 days ago
Score 0+-
I think Smoltz being a closer actually will hurt him in the voting. He only had three full seasons there, whereas Eck had more as a closer (12) than as a starter (11).

His sample is too small, and what he lost (wins, K's) in those three years could make the difference in whether he is elected or not.

Smoltz and Schilling are similar in the regard they had postseason success, yet were not the "ace" of their respective staffs. Mussina, while on paper doesn't have the multiple 20 seasons or 300 K seasons, was unquestionably the ace of his staff in Baltimore, on not very good teams in most cases.

In my opinion, Mussina is the most deserving of the three, I don't feel he is a HOFer, meaning the other two aren't either.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
507 days ago
Score -1+-
"Sorry, but your use of wins as a meaningful statistic means that I can disregard your argument."

The fact you consider wins meaningless means I can disregard yours.

So what "meaningful" stat are you going to qualify Smoltz? And don't embarrass yourself by saying "saves."
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
507 days ago
Score 1+-
I'll go with strikeouts (3011 for Smoltz, 16th all time), career ERA (3.26), ERA+ (127). I'm not saying that his numbers are good enough to get in, or they're not good enough. I'm just saying, look at the right ones.
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
507 days ago
Score 0+-
Sorry, but your use of wins as a meaningful statistic means that I can disregard your argument. Also, you can't discount a player's HOF chances because his teammate was better. If you put the '99 and '00 Pedro on a team with Warren Spahn, then Spahn shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame either, because Pedro would clearly be the better pitcher.
Permalink | Reply
LASportsblogAAA-er
507 days ago
Score 1+-
But Timl, aren't Wins used as a meaningful way for the Writer's to choose who makes the Hall and who doesn't? So if it is used by them as a measuring stick would it not also be valid for Lou?
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
507 days ago
Score 1+-
Point taken, LA. Many of the voters do still subscribe to that theory, which is just ridiculous.
Permalink
CoreyisarealboyMajor Leaguer
507 days ago
Score 1+-
It's interesting you brought Pedro up when talking about wins, because 211 certainly isn't enough in my book to warrant a nod into the HOF, but you can't argue that his 2.82 career ERA will likely get him in.
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
507 days ago
Score 1+-
Pedro was never about the wins. Pedro in 1999 might have been the best pitcher ever.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
507 days ago
Score 1+-
Yeah, let's not count his Cy Young's, either.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
507 days ago
Score 2+-
Don't count Smoltz's either...

Smoltz gets in because he was dominant in both roles, whether or not he didn't do them "long enough" to satisfy some imaginary threshold.

Smoltz wasn't the Ace of his staff because there were two other HoFers on his team. But he had better stuff and was just as effective as both of them.


Plus Smoltz wasn't a cock to the media, unlike Schilling.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
507 days ago
Score 0+-
The fact you think Jack Morris is a HOFer kind of discounts your opinion, don't you think.

Hall of Fame, not Hall of Very Good.

And all I said is I didn't think they're Hall of Famers, I never said they wouldn't eventually get in. And remember, I always said Smoltz will, although it will be more of a sympathy vote than an earned one.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
507 days ago
Score 0+-
I DON'T think he is a HoF pitcher. Which is why I use him to measure Schilling and Mussina.

But if you take just the time period between the stoppages (1981-1994), Jack Morris is the most consistent and winningest pitcher... it was a horrible era for statistical accumulation but "Best" amongst his peers is still "Best" amongst his peers...

I also won't fret if Blyleven never gets in.

Smoltz earned it.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
507 days ago
Score 2+-
Ehhhhhhhh......I kinda see your point, and kinda not. If you go by the theory "best in your era," then, yes, Morris should get more consideration than he has. But looking at the big picture, I have a huge problem considering someone with a 3.90 career ERA, regardless of which era he played in.

There is no argument to keeping Blyleven out, and he will be in before 2010, bank it. Because if he isn't elected next year, which is his last year on the ballot, then he goes in his first year of eligibility on the Vet's Committee.

The Hall of Famers themselves know who the legit HOFers are, even if the BBWAA doesn't.
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
507 days ago
Score 0+-
His curveball should go in tomorrow, but his pottymouth should have to wait!!! =)
Permalink
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
507 days ago
Score 0+-
Statistics should not be taken out of context, and the thought of your team facing a particular pitcher in Game 7 should be a significant factor.

Elroy Face won 19 consecutive games in 1959. A great example of a statistical anomaly.

Smoltz is only 1-4 in the WS, which another misleading statistical with respect to won-lost.

Smoltz is borderline when one goes only by statistics, but he would not bring joy to the hearts of the fans of the AL team that had to face him in Game 7 of the WS.
Permalink | Reply
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Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User LouGehrig | June 21, 2008 | June 2008 | MLB Opinions | Curt Schilling Opinions | Mike Mussina Opinions | Hall of Fame Opinions | Sandy Koufax Opinions | Allie Reynolds Opinions | Ted Lyons Opinions | Tommy John Opinions | Bert Blyleven Opinions | Jim Kaat Opinions | New York Yankees Opinions | Philadelphia Phillies Opinions | Arizona Diamondbacks Opinions | Los Angeles Dodgers Opinions

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