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About the Author

Sj-hypocycloid
Mike Frangione has engaged himself in the noble calling of sportswriting over the years (1991-1997, and again in 2007), enjoying two stints covering (stringing) High School sports for my local newspaper in South Jersey. That was a great learning experience and also a great deal of fun.

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Random Baseball Thoughts, Questions

by Sj-hypocycloid
created March 14, 2008, last edited February 10, 2009
14
Vote

Apologies if these should be lockeroom items.

Pete Rose: HOF?

It's pretty well established that many of the contributors to this site don't like steroids or their users, and I count myself among them.

How do people feel about someone like Pete Rose? I don't think I need to recite chapter and verse for him, but I'll mention a few points:

  • 10 seasons with 200 or more hits, 3 more with 190+
  • Lifetime .303 batting average
  • Played in six Fall Classics, was a part of three World Series Champion teams
  • Led league in batting three times, was second twice
  • Rookie of the year in 1963, MVP in 1973
  • Hit king - 4,256 career hits

Yes, he lied and yes it's pretty well known that gambling is the cardinal sin for baseball players. But...I have always felt that MLB was being a bit pious, and given the recent ability to look the other way, maybe it was time to look past this. It also seems to me that baseball officials took Rose's refusal to say what they wanted to hear personally. Maybe he is a jerk. But being a jerk doesn't necessarily mean he shouldn't be in the hall.

I had a thought about this. Rose is a publicity seeker and it seems like he just wants to be able to put HOF after his name in order to make whatever money will be offered him for that distinction. Numbers-wise, he IS a Hall of Famer.

They could just put him in with no fanfare. In February. Put up the plaque with whatever disclaimer they feel is appropriate. Inform him that he is still banned from baseball and that he is not sanctioned by MLB to put HOF after his name. Hold no press conference and make no real announcement about this.

So I throw this out for thoughts, since I respsect the opinions of the people I've seen writing and commenting on this site.

What do you think? Should Pete Rose be in the Hall of Fame? Or am I just being a naive homer who is allowing the 1980 World Series to cloud his judgment?

Donny Baseball and Teddy Ballgame

I've probably spent way too much time thinking about this one, but that's what diehard, neurotic baseball fans do best, right?

I've been watching baseball games for as long as I can remember. I read whatever baseball magazines, books and/or baseball cards I could get my hands on as a kid and I never heard either one of these nicknames. Am I the only one?

I'd heard "The Kid" and "The Splendid Splinter" for Ted Williams. I swear to Abner Doubleday that I never even knew Don Mattingly had a nickname. I've asked a few Yankee fans I know about Donnie Ballgame and nobody had heard that nickname. But this is hardly conclusive.

So the question is: Had anyone heard either of these nicknames prior to, say, 1995? I will pull a Hank Steinbrenner here and feel that these nicknames are a product of ESPN and Chris Berman types who think that everyone has to have some catchy nickname.

If anyone has any written or substantiated reference to either one of these nicknames, I'd appreciate hearing about it.


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
KelsdadAll-Star
630 days ago
Score 3+-
Question 1:

Unequivocably no. What Rose did is far worse than steriods.

Question 2:

Yes, both nicknames are true.
Permalink | Reply
Steel TownDraft Pick
629 days ago
Score 2+-
Please elaborate. Why is Gambling worse than Steroids?
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
629 days ago
Score -1+-
If you don't honestly know the answer to that question, you don't need me, you need Dr. Phil.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
629 days ago
Score 0+-
Victimized by the minus troll again, I see
Permalink
CheezerAll-Star
629 days ago
Score 2+-
Why don't you just answer the question? I'd like to hear your reasoning as well. I tend to equate the two.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
629 days ago
Score 1+-
I'd be interested in more comments pertaining to the "Ballgame" and "Baseball" nicknames. Anyone besides Kelsdad and Manny Stiles hear these prior to 1995?
Permalink
RomiezzoLegend
629 days ago
Score 0+-
Kels, your just saying that because Giambi took steroids and didn't gamble... </sarcasm>.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
629 days ago
Score 2+-
Jason Giambi is one of my most disliked players ever, and I felt that way before the steriod thingy.
Permalink
RomiezzoLegend
629 days ago
Score 1+-
Remember when he wanted to quit baseball for a while to play the brass triangle, or something retarded like that?
Permalink
Steel TownDraft Pick
629 days ago
Score 0+-
Well since you didn't answer an honest question with a reasonable answer I will give my view point. When I look at the two issues I can see why both are problems. On one hand we have steroids which is 100% cheating, no doubt about it. But when it comes to gamling, that only leaves the door open for cheating. So in essence you are saying the possibility of cheating is worse than actually cheating.
Permalink
TaddoSoccer Kid
630 days ago
Score 1+-
pete rose should def. be in the hall of fame unless it is proven that he bet on steroids!
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
630 days ago
Score 2+-
Pete Rose should be elected into the Hall of Fame the year AFTER he dies. He shouldn't make an extra cent off the Hall of Fame. And that's being generous. I don't think an eternal ban is ridiculous. There's a long precedent in baseball: you bet, you're banned. End of story. And I've heard "Splendid Splinter" and "The Kid" before 1995. Didn't hear "Donnie Baseball" until maybe 1998 or 1999, but then again I was 11 in '95.
Permalink | Reply
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 0+-
Bud Selig will leave office before he ever lets Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame. He doesn't want to be remembered as the commissioner who lets Rose be eligible for Hall of Fame voting. Rose will be 67 next month making it 22 years since he last played a major league game. Rose batted over 600 times in 17 seasons which made it easier to get his 3000th hit.He never hit more than 16 home runs in a season. Later in his career he walked very seldom giving him more chances to get base hits.It took Rose 2619 more at bats to finish with 67 more hits than Cobb. So it took him an extra five seasons to pass Cobb. Rose only hit .303 lifetime while Cobb hit .366. 13 active players have higher career batting average than Rose.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
629 days ago
Score 1+-
I don't think you can use the phrase "only hit .303 lifetime" when talking about someone with a 24 year career.

Nobody is saying he is better than Cobb, or the best all-time. But with his awards and numbers, he WOULD be in the HOF if it weren't for gambling.

17 All-Star Games (started at 4 different positions), 1960 ROY, 1973 MVP, 1975 World Series MVP, 3 rings, 2 Gold Gloves, 1 Silver Slugger, 3 batting titles, most hits ever, 6th all-time in runs scored, .303 career average, .375 career OBP, .321 post-season average in 67 games.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
629 days ago
Score 2+-
Couldn't (and hasn't - hence the asterisk) the same more games/more at bats argument be made for Maris and Aaron? Ruth: 540 AB = 60 HR. Maris: 590 AB = 61 HR (and 10 more games). Ruth: 8398 AB = 714 HR. Aaron: 11,500 AB (approx.) = 715 HR. I give all the credit in the world to Maris and Aaron for what they did, regardless of what the conditions were. They played according to the rules of their time. And Carew is in the Hall and he never hit more than 14 HR in a season.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
629 days ago
Score 2+-
There's also somethng to be said about someone who can play and play hard for 24 seasons, playing in most every game. It isn't easy to play baseball and play it well. Trying to downplay Rose's record by pointing out how great Cobb was is like comparing Aaron and Ruth. Ruth was a better hitter, even though Aaron has the record. But just because one of the best players of all-time is better than Rose doesn't mean he wasn't great. Ty Cobb also never hit more than 12 homeruns in his career, and had 24 seasons to get his numbers.
Permalink
Steel TownDraft Pick
629 days ago
Score 1+-
I love Rose, I will always be a fan of his playing days. But, he broke what is known as the number one rule in baseball, so he must pay the price now.
Permalink | Reply
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
629 days ago
Score 2+-
The only reason Pete Rose in not in the HOF is because of Pete Rose.

The public would've forgave him on the gambling over time. As would baseball.

It is Rose's lying about gambling that keeps him out of the HOF. Too many bridges burnt.
Permalink | Reply
Steel TownDraft Pick
629 days ago
Score 3+-
Exactly. Is it the Bonds Treatment or should we call it the Rose treatment. Don't be a dick and people will forgive you. It's that easy.
Permalink
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 1+-
That is why Palmeiro is out of baseball...his commmittee appearance denying the use of steroids and then testing positive not too long after made fans turn against him. The same thing can happen to Clemens..for his sake I hope he was telling the truth or he may be doing some serious jail time.
Permalink | Reply
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
629 days ago
Score 2+-
These cheaters had a choice. They easily could've just told the truth and say, "I did it, I'm ashamed I did it and I'm truly sorry. Please forgive me."

And you know what? Nobody would risk facing jail time. Tax payer money wouldn't be spent and self-centered politicians wouldn't be mugging for the CSPAN cameras. Palmeiro, McGwire, Bonds, etc. would've been forgiven.

The writers? In time, these guys would cave to peer pressure and elect these guys into the HOF.

In these cases, the lies are worse than the crimes themselves.
Permalink
Steel TownDraft Pick
629 days ago
Score 1+-
See Andy Petite.
Permalink
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 0+-
I remember they had to serve subpoena to Palmeiro to testify. He said he was too busy to go to Washington since he was working out in spring training....now we know why he didn't want to go to Washington.
Permalink | Reply
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 0+-
Wrote only about the .303 lifetime average of Rose because compared to the .366 average of Cobb it pales in significance.
Permalink | Reply
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
629 days ago
Score 2+-
Everyone who has ever (and will play in the future) played baseball pretty much pales to that. The next highest is .358, and it declines quickly from there. Cobb is great, but I don't know if I would knock Rose for having a .303 lifetime average. In the modern era, only Tony Gwynn is even within 30 points at .338.
Permalink
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 1+-
I am not knocking Rose at all..sorry I gave that impression. I have been a Pete Rose fan for a long time and remember when he played on TV in 1963 in his first season with Reds when I was stationed at Ft. Benjamin Harrison in Indianapolis.
Permalink | Reply
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
629 days ago
Score 1+-
Probably a misinterpretation on my part. Thanks for your comments - I enjoyed seeing everyone's thoughts. I look forward to more discussions as the regular season begins!
Permalink
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 1+-
I always have liked players that hustle and Pete Rose to me was the best hustler of all time. Ryan Freel is another hustler that plays today.
Permalink | Reply
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 0+-
I can't get very excited about spring training games but still would like to see a spring training game if I had the chance. It seems strange starting the season in Japan. Wonder what time the games will be in the eastern time zone?
Permalink | Reply
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 1+-
Sj...you have every right to your opinions...was thinking mostly how many hits Rose would have had if he had hit .366 for his career.
Permalink | Reply
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
629 days ago
Score 1+-
I don't think anyone will be approaching .366 anytime soon. That number is mind boggling! Up there with 56 games and 191 RBI - I can't imagine these numbers ever being equalled.
Permalink
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 0+-
Just did some checking online and found Don Mattingly was called Donnie Ballgame but did find one place where he was called Donnie Baseball but think it is Ballgame since it was in many more articles on internet.
Permalink | Reply
Niteowl049AAA-er
629 days ago
Score 0+-
A hitter these days is doing good to hit .350...56 game hitting streak has to be the toughest streak there is...thought Juan Gonzalez had a shot at the 190 RBI mark of Hack Wilson when he had 100 at All Star time but he wound up with around 150 or so RBI's.
Permalink | Reply
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Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User Sj-hypocycloid | March 14, 2008 | March 2008 | Baseball Opinions | MLB Opinions | New York Yankees Opinions | Boston Red Sox Opinions | Cincinnati Reds Opinions

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