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TheSportsApple

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MLB Edition: Is He a Hall of Famer?

by TheSportsApple
created February 27, 2008, last edited February 10, 2009
15
Vote

From: TheSportsApple

Cooperstown, New York is hallowed grounds. A Pantheon of sorts if you will. But it is not known simply because it is close to the original site of Woodstock but because it is home to the greatest baseball personnel who have ever lived.

Currently enshrined in the National Baseball Hall of Fame are 286 players, [1] managers, umpires, builders, executives, and organizers. However, to reach such baseball immortality one has to be the best of the best, not just a mediocre all-star (There is nothing wrong with that Jason Varitek). Of course their are some all-time great players who are currently not enshrined (Andre Dawson) and some mediocre players (Bill Mazeroski) that are. Some outfielders in the HOF couldn't carry Dawson's lead doughnut, but I digress.

There are always going to be players inducted into the Hall. Who of today's current players would that include?

Let's find out, as it's again time to play everyone's favorite little game: "Is he a Hall of Famer?"

(*As always, to make the debate more interesting, I am omitting players that almost certainly will make the Hall of Fame barring something catastrophic happening to their career. Active players such as Ken Griffey Jr., Randy Johnson, Alex Rodriguez, and Greg Maddux just to name a few).

Today's MLB edition will be about three players: Jim Thome, John Smoltz, and Craig Biggio. (I know Biggio just retired but his is a good argument).


Jim Thome

6'4", 220 lbs, 1B, Illinois Central College
Nicknames: Mr. High Socks, The Thomenator
13th round draft pick of the 1989 amateur draft (Cleveland Indians)

Stats

Career Averages:
.281 AVG
507 HR
1398 RBIs
18 SB
5 time All-Star
2002 Roberto Clemente Award
2004 Lou Gehrig Award
Member of 500 Home Run Club (22nd all-time)
1996 Silver Slugger Award (3B)
19th on career walk list (1459)
16th on career slugging percentage list (.565)

Argument Against

Thome has never placed higher than 4th in MVP balloting in a single season. He has the ability to punish right-handed pitchers, but has only hit .240 for his career against lefties. He is a terribly slow base runner and doesn't have many extra base hits (when you take out the home runs). Thome has never finished in the top 5 in runs scored in a season. He also ranks 3rd on the all time strikeout list with 2,043.

Comparison to Current Hall of Famer:

Harmon Killebrew

Both of them played first base and had tons of raw power. Thome could have almost identical career number to Killebrew once he retires. Killebrew hit .256 with 573 homers and 1584 RBI's. Killebrew also had 8 career 40+ home run seasons; Thome has 6 going into the 2008 season. Thome also has a higher career slugging percentage at .565 compared to .509 for Killebrew.

Final Verdict:

Just because Thome has reached the once exclusive 500 Home Run club does not automatically guarantee him a spot in Cooperstown. In fact, he still has a lot of work left to do. He needs to finish with around 575-600 home runs and at least 1600 RBI to get some serious consideration. After all, if you take away his ability to hit home runs against righties (he has hit 82% of his HR's against right handers) he is just an average Joe without speed and an adequate glove. He reminds me of Rafael Palmiero, a very solid player who plays long enough to compile gaudy stats but never really dominated. NOT IN.

John Smoltz

6'3", 210 lbs, P, Waverly High School (Michigan)
Nickname: Smoltzie
22nd round draft pick of the 1985 amateur draft (Detroit Tigers)

Stats

Career Averages:
207-145
3.26 ERA
154 saves
2975 K's
8 time All-Star
NLCS MVP (1992)
NL Cy Young Award Winner (1996)
Silver Slugger Award Winner for Pitcher (1997)
National League Rolaids Relief Man of the Year Award winner (2002)
The only pitcher to compile 200 wins and 150 saves
Member of 1995 World Series Champion Atlanta Braves
16th on career strikeout list (2975)
1st on career postseason wins list (15) and postseason strikeouts list (194)
Tied for 60th on career saves list (154), despite only being a closer for 3 seasons

Argument Against

Only won 20 games as a starter once. Smoltz ranks 97th on the career wins list because of the three seasons in which he was a closer. Ranks 82nd on the career WHIP list at 1.1696.

Comparison to Current Hall of Famer:

Dennis Eckersley

Eckersley and Smoltz are the only two pitchers to have had both a 20-win season and a 50-save season. Smoltz has a 3.26 career ERA, while Eckersley has a 3.50. Both have 1 Cy Young Award, and both have won over 150 games as a starter. Both pitchers were dominating closers. Smoltz averaged 48 saves in his 3 seasons as a closer. Eckersley struck out 458 while walking just 51 in a six-year span as a closer.

Final Verdict:

Smoltz will have taken a unique path to Cooperstown as he switched positions midway through his career. But one thing that it proved was his ability to dominant hitters. He has featured a 4-seam fastball, power slider, and a 90 mph split finger that is his out pitch. His stats aren’t the most gaudy but proven that he can pitch well in the postseason when the pressure is at its highest. He also has finished in the top 7 in Cy Young voting 5 times, which proves his dominant ability. And he accomplished all this in the Steroid Era. IN.


Craig Biggio

5'11", 180 lbs, C/2B/CF, Seton Hall University
Nicknames: Pigpen
1st round draft pick of the 1987 amateur draft (Houston Astros)

Stats

Career Averages:
.281 AVG
291 HR
1175 RBIs
414 SB
7 time all-star
1997 Branch Rickey Award
2005 Hutch Award
2007 Roberto Clemente Award
20th on all-time hits list (3060)
4 time Gold Glove Award Winner (2B)
5 time Silver Slugger Award Winner
5th on all-time doubles list (668)
2nd on all-time hit by pitch list (285)
28th in career total bases (4711)
25th in career extra base hits (1014)
23rd player ever to have at least 10,000 at bats.
Became the first player in baseball history not to hit into a single double play while playing an entire 162 game season (1997).
In 1998, he became the second player to have 50 stolen bases and 50 doubles in the same season (Tris Speaker).

Argument Against

Biggio never hit more than 26 home runs in a season. Remember he did play in the Steroid Era so even though he predominantly a second baseman, this is not a very high amount. Biggio only finished in the top 10 in MVP balloting in a season 3 times. This proves he never had a completely dominating season. One could argue that he isn't a great pure hitter because his 3,060 hits came in over 10,000 at bats leading to a very average .281 batting average. Played the latter half of his career in one the most hitter friendly ballparks (Minute Maid Field).

Comparison to Current Hall of Famer:

Robin Yount

Both of them played their entire careers for the same organization, excelling at a middle infield position. They then switched to center field. Yount is 26th and Biggio is 27th on all time doubles list. Both players had about 11,000 at bats, batted in the .280s and had over 250 home runs. Biggio had more stolen bases (414) compared to Yount's 271 however Yount had more career RBI's.

Final Verdict:

Biggio is the only player in the history of baseball with 3000 hits, 600 doubles, 400 stolen bases, and 250 home runs. Had he had 9 more home runs he would have only been the second player ever to have 3000 hits, 300 home runs, and 300 stolen bases. Willie Mays is the other. Pretty good company if you ask me. IN.

Some stats provided by baseball-reference.com

Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
TheSportsAppleAll-American
640 days ago
Score 0+-
OK, I am awful at formatting these articles and forget about adding images.
Permalink | Reply
AfraidofedhochuliDraft Pick
640 days ago
Score 0+-
that better?
Permalink
RomiezzoLegend
639 days ago
Score 0+-
I think it's better NOW. ;)
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
640 days ago
Score 0+-
They'll all get in. Biggio isn't ever getting into MY Hall of Famous, though
Permalink | Reply
Agent0Red-Shirting
640 days ago
Score 2+-
Manny, that was 533 days ago and you said Favre was pretty much retired then...look at him now!
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
640 days ago
Score 0+-
He's already in, he doesn't need to impress me anymore...
Permalink
Falcon02520Legend
640 days ago
Score 1+-
Thome is the least deserving of the three, but they will all most likely end up in the hall. I don't agree with comparing Thome to Killebrew though. Harmon was "the most feared hitter in the game." His name doesn't come up as much as it should, but he is one of the best (and scariest) hitters that a pitcher ever had to face. Thome, although has similar numbers, is not that type of player; plus the whole time difference thing makes it so that the two cannot be compared on the same level...
Permalink | Reply
BigPPupMajor Leaguer
640 days ago
Score 1+-
Yeah I gotta agree with you on that one. Smoltz has legit numbers and deserves it. Biggio and Thome get in because they were just consistent over a long period of time, not because they did anything that great.
Permalink
AfraidofedhochuliDraft Pick
640 days ago
Score 0+-
i would agree, except that he was comparing the numbers not people.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
640 days ago
Score 1+-
Biggio yes, the others no
Permalink | Reply
Anonymous Fanatic #1
639 days ago
Score 0+-
Smoltz should definitely get in. He dominated the "steroid era" and pitched brilliantly (although his record doesnt show it) in countless postseason games. Then he had his arm troubles. What did he do? He just became on of the best closers in that 3-year span (02-04). He'd get my vote.
Permalink | Reply
99yankeesWaterboy
639 days ago
Score 0+-
damn thing logged me out!
Permalink
99yankeesWaterboy
639 days ago
Score 0+-
Smoltz should definitely get in. He dominated the "steroid era" and pitched brilliantly (although his record doesnt show it) in countless postseason games. Then he had his arm troubles. What did he do? He just became on of the best closers in that 3-year span (02-04). He'd get my vote.
Permalink | Reply
TwinsTerritoryVarsity
639 days ago
Score 0+-
I say 'Yes' to Biggio...
Permalink | Reply
Taytay 24All-American
639 days ago
Score 0+-
Smoltz is a legit HOFer, but the other two are baseball lifers, and to me, numbers compiled due to longevity alone don't cut it.
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
639 days ago
Score 1+-
Isn't that what Smoltz is doing?
Permalink | Reply
Taytay 24All-American
639 days ago
Score 0+-
Not at all. Smoltz has Cy Youngs and has dominated as both a starter and a closer. Where are Biggio's and Thome's batting titles? Home run titles? MVP trophies? They were very good players. They are not Hall of Famers.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
639 days ago
Score 1+-
In defense of Biggio, second basemen rarely win batting titles, homerun titles, or MVPs. But he did win 5 Silver Sluggers (4 at 2B, 1 at C), and 4 Gold Gloves.
Permalink
Taytay 24All-American
639 days ago
Score 0+-
You forgot all of his getting plunked titles.
Permalink
TheSportsPointWaterboy
639 days ago
Score 0+-
Biggio and Smoltz yes. No for Thome.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
639 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree with all three of your assessments. Thome has the 500 mark, but that's become meaningless these days. Smoltz has had an all around great career as starter, closer, then starter again. And comparing Biggio to other Hall of Fame 2B is very favorable to him. The one thing I did disagree with you was Cooperstown being close to Woodstock. The only thing Cooperstown is close to is Hartwick, a.k.a. NOTHING. Oh, and there's a town out there called Worcester, NY, which the local residents horribly mispronounce. War-Chester? You kidding me?
Permalink | Reply
KelsdadAll-Star
639 days ago
Score 1+-
The problem with Smoltz is he will always be compared to Dennis Eckersley.

Eck had two equal careers, 13 as a starter and 11 as a reliever, had 150 wins as a starter, 47 as a reliever and 390 career saves. Smoltz has 201 wins as a starter, 6 as a reliever and 154 saves. So, Smoltz' numbers pale in comparison to Eckersley's.

And one thing to remember, Smoltz was given the option of remaining in the pen or returning to the rotation, he chose the rotation with the explanation he felt he needed 250 career wins to make the Hall.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
639 days ago
Score 1+-
Just because Smoltz isn't as good as Eckersley doesn't mean he won't or shouldn't get in. A career ERA of 3.26 is pretty damned impressive in this day and age. A 15-4 record with 4 saves and 2.65 ERA in the post-season is even more impressive.
Permalink
Taytay 24All-American
639 days ago
Score 2+-
I would hardly say Smoltz's numbers pale in comparison to Eckersley's. He has more wins, and although he has fewer saves, he got them in fewer seasons--he averaged nearly 50 for three years in the pen. And in 14 years as a starter, he averaged nearly 14 wins a year for his career.

As for Smoltz chasing 250 for the Hall, he is certainly entitled to his opinion as well. But I think there is no question he is in.

Back to longevity questions: Smoltz has certainly had a longer than average career. But the difference between him and Thome/Biggio is that he is still very productive, while they are limping to the finish line.
Permalink
Niteowl049AAA-er
639 days ago
Score 0+-
If Smoltz goes in the Hall of Fame before Bert Blyleven there needs to be an investigation. I don't see why he thinks 250 wins will get him in the Hall of Fame...287 hasn't been enough for Blyleven. Biggio is right up there near the top in doubles with only Tris Speaker, Pete Rose, Stan Musial and Ty Cobb ahead of him.
Permalink | Reply
Niteowl049AAA-er
639 days ago
Score 0+-
Not that it matters that much but Biggio is second all time in getting hit by pitch and missed being the leader by 3.
Permalink | Reply
RomiezzoLegend
639 days ago
Score 0+-
2nd on all-time hit by pitch list (285) It was in the article, under his stats...
Permalink
RomiezzoLegend
639 days ago
Score 1+-
I actually believe that all of them will make the Hall of Fame eventually.

Sure, the 500 home run club doesn't mean that much anymore due to... you know. But Thome is still only 36 years old; he's got another 5 years left in his career... that is if he wants to hit 600 home runs. He hit 35 homers last season. He's still got some pop left in him. I think he can average about 19 homers for 5 years to get himself an even 600. We'll see what happens.

Biggio is a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame. NO QUESTION!

Smoltz is in the Hall of Fame as well. He might not make it in his first year he's eligible, but probably his second or third year. He's a very unique pitcher who is very clutch in the postseason. He's considered a great starter, and a great reliever. He's in, IMO.
Permalink | Reply
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
639 days ago
Score 2+-
Actually, I believe that the 500 HR Club has been restored and vindicated as a benchmark BECAUSE of the cheaters and their overinflated statistics. Baseball fans are not stupid. They know who did what and how.
Permalink
RomiezzoLegend
639 days ago
Score 0+-
Well... some are. Remember 07RedSoxChamps? Whatever his name was...
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
638 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree to what Tyrone said, but there is another factor at least as important as "cough, steriods, cough".

The designated hitter.

Frank Thomas and Jim Thome benefitted from the DH like Barry and Sammy did with the juice. In five years when Ryan Howard and Prince Fielder eat themselves off the field, instead of collecting pension checks or being minor league hitting coaches, they'll be in the AL padding their stats.

Sucks, man.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
638 days ago
Score 0+-
So you're saying Fred McGriff is a lock, KD?


Only 175 of his games played (or 7% of his career) were as a DH... NINETY as a 23 year old rookie with Willie Upshaw at 1B.

It's VERY TOUGH to say McGriff's numbers were aided by steroids or the DH.

VOTE HIM IN!!!!
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
638 days ago
Score 1+-
No, he qualifies as a long career, good player. Not great. Not HOF
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
638 days ago
Score 1+-
Oh, you mean like Craig Biggio? (Biggio had 2,119 more at bats than McGriff)

Or like Andre Dawson who had 179 less HRs than Fred in 167 more games??

Let's not forget that Fred led BOTH the NL and AL in HR during his career and oh, yeah... had a higher lifetime batting average than Thome, Dawson AND Biggio at .284!!!

Hey look at that! Fred was an All-Star as many times as Biggio and Thome both were!!!

Now what you got?
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
638 days ago
Score 0+-
I never believed Dawson was a HOFer. Neither is Thome. Neither is Thomas. Biggio is because of the 3000 hits. Not changing my mind.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
638 days ago
Score 0+-
So hang around for 6 years after you're done being effective and get 3000 hits and your in? But don't DH and be very good through out your entire career and don't hang on for a meaningless milestone (500 HR in McGriff's case) and you're just "very good". Interesting...

I'll tell Rafael Palmiero that.

You know Babe Ruth didn't have 3,000 hits right?

So if Jim Rice didn't DH for 1/3rd of his career, would he be worthy?

(psst... The big feared Jim Rice only had 532 less ABs and 111 less HRs than McGriff)
Permalink
TheSportsAppleAll-American
639 days ago
Score 0+-
Thanks for all of your opinions guys. It makes for some interesting debates on who should be in or out.
Permalink | Reply
Cougar2000All-American
633 days ago
Score 0+-
If Smoltz and Biggio do not get into the HOF, there will be major hell to pay! I got to see Biggio reach the 3000 hit mark against Colorado in Houston (5 hits in one game! We were hoping that he would prolong it but Craig being Craig, he didn't disappoint the crowd). Houston was not that good in 07, even with Pigpen but he gave his best every time he stepped on the field, whether it was at 2nd, in the outfield or behind the plate (Let's not forget, Biggio was a catcher).

Smoltz gives the Braves some leadership in the rotation that was racked by injuries with Hampton's absence for 2 years. The return of one Thomas Micheal Glavine (of Billarica, Massachusetts) may mean another Cy Young for the Braves in the future.

Thome may not get any first ballot votes but he did help Philadelphia get into the 07 playoffs. I can argue a case for him as well.

Good article, btw!
Permalink | Reply
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Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User TheSportsApple | February 27, 2008 | February 2008 | MLB Opinions | Hall of Fame Opinions | Jim Thome Opinions | John Smoltz Opinions | Craig Biggio Opinions | Atlanta Braves Opinions | Houston Astros Opinions | Chicago White Sox Opinions

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