In Defense of McNabb...and...Deion Sanders is a Tool

Front office. Sorry, I was channeling a little JuT. He uses this abbreviation from time to time.

I figure it was that or Football Organization. Just wasn't sure.

Reid's playcalling needs to change.

Use Buck more often. Set up the pass with the run, Play Actions, Draws EVERYTHING!

I love McNabb, he was off at times but he recovered. He did a great job in that game keeping us alive. But Reid needs to go, I'm sorry.

If it was between Reid and McNabb, I'd agree. But despite Reid's failings and stubbornness, you still have a 10-year span of greater sustained success than you've seen in the Eagles in the last 50 years.

Don't forget that the Steelers have also lost title games they should have won. All at home. Four of them. In the Cowher/Tomlin era, they are now 3-4 in AFC title games. Cowher was 1-4 in title games and 1-1 in Super Bowls. Reid has a similar record: 1-4, 0-1.

Again, how many other coaches/teams do you think would like to have this problem?

Sometimes, you don't change coaches cause he is bad. A change of attitude may help. Just my two cents.

That's fine and dandy SJ but this league is a "what have you done for me lately" kind of league. And other than nthis title game, wher has Reid done for us since the Super Bowl we lost? I won't deny he is one fo the best coaches in Eagles history, if not the best, but his calling si stale, everyone knows our game plan. We need to either rid of him, or get a superior OC and have him call plays and Reid just be a HC.

I think an OC is the real answer Philly is looking for. Being a Steelers fan I have been blessed with stable coaching. The Steelers only won one Super Bowl and only went to two but they were almost always in the hunt.

^^^Under Cowher.

that's what I'm saying STeel Town. If we can get an innovative OC who can consistently keep us in the hunt, I will never rip Reid again, just the OC :P Reid is not a bad coach, he really isn't. THe players love him and respect him. He does a fine job getting this tteam ready to play, what kills us is the same ol statline..60 pass 15 rushes. It's killing us

IMO, McNabb isn't elite, but you have to hang on to him if only because finding a replacement would be extremely difficult. But he does allow his mind to leave the game at times.

If anything, the Eagles need a change at head coach. Either Reid needs to finally adapt, something he's needed to do for about 5 years now. Or someone else should come in. It's hard to fire a successful coach, but the most consistent thing the Eagles have done under Reid is lose big games.

The Eagles are predictable, that's their biggest problem. Good teams with a knowledge of what their opponents are going to do, will almost always prevail.

Elite is a matter of opinion. most would agree that, when healthy, McNabb is elite. I think that as well. Then again, I also think Chad Pennington is elite :P McNabb is better than most QBs in the league

Why is it that every time somebody says McNabb isn't the greatest quarterback in the League, and Eagle fan will get miffed and argue about it?

But I guess if you think Pennington is elite, you'd have to include McNabb. And Cassel. And Ryan. And Palmer. And Schaub. And Hasselbeck. Seems like a lot of guys are elite QBs.

PS:

"most would agree that, when healthy, McNabb is elite."

I think you meant "when healthy, and in the regular season."

Who says I'm miffed? All I said it was a matter of opinion. And Hasselback and Palmer are elite. Just because they have had a down season doesn't revoke that elite status.

And in my OPINION, Brady isn't elite, just a byproduct of Beli's creativity and superior coaching.

If you don't like the opinion that's not my problem, it's yours. :)

Yikes. If you're saying McNabb is elite, and Brady isn't...yikes. I hate Brady because he's a Patriot and ripped out the hearts of Steeler fans more times than I care to remember. He's a hall of famer. He is elite. McNabb is very very good - but he isn't in Brady's class. Then again, not many QBs are.

Why is it that every time somebody says McNabb isn't the greatest quarterback in the League, and Eagle fan will get miffed and argue about it? Simple, Eagles fans defend their own. Its ok for us to rip shit on these guys, but outsiders can't.

SJ I was making a point. It was a matter of opinion. He may think brady is great and McNabb isn't elite, that's fine. BUt I feel the other way.

I don't doubt Brady's skills as a QB, I'm in no way saying he is any less of a QB than McNabb is, sure he excels in certain areas more than McNabb(Accuracy, Stats, and SB rings) BUt I just think he is a product of Beli's system. Put him on a nother team and his stats clearly wouldn't be as great, He'd still be a top 5 QB to me.

You guys can thumbs down me all you want. All I am saying is, you can have your opinions, that doesn't make them right. Same goes for mine.

Hence, Opinion

And also, the Pennington thing, was a joke Rawb. Glad you picked up on that.

At this point in time, it is impossible for me to defend Donovan McNabb anymore. He will NEVER be considered a great QB until he wins a Super Bowl, and if he doesn't get it next year then it will NEVER come. He will more likely be put in the "Good but not Great" category of QBs now.

The same goes for Andy Reid, because he hasn't won a Super Bowl and he's now 1-4 in NFC Championship Games. Look at the QBs and head coaching tandems that have outperformed Donovan and Andy:

2002 - Mike Martz and Kurt Warner

2004 - Jon Gruden and Brad Johnson

2005 - John Fox and Jake Delhomme

2008 - Ken Whisenhunt and Kurt Warner

Notice a pattern here? Every one of these coaches were only with their team for no more than 2 years and they outcoached a veteran.

Delhomme and Warner were journeyman QBs and both of them outperformed Donovan McNabb in conference championship games. Warner outperformed him as a 37 year old veteran who most thought had nothing left in the tank. Brad Johnson didn't really do much in his game but he didn't throw a game-ending pick 6. McNabb has thrown 6 interceptions in 5 conference championship games, which accounts for 1/3 of his total number of interceptions in his playoff career.

Andy Reid? In the 2002 NFCCG, the Eagles went 2 full quarters without running the ball.

In 2003, McNabb threw the ball 49 times.

In 2004, McNabb was terrible and Koy Detmer stepped up and he sucked. That loss though was the most balanced he has ever been in NFCCG losses.

In 2008, 47 passes and 17 runs.

McNabb and Reid will be put in as the greatest QB and greatest coach in the history of the franchise respectively, but they will only remain that way because they couldn't get it done when it mattered.

It's time to move on, one of them has to go by the end of the 2010 season.

Of course, what I mean is that those coaches were HEAD COACHES of their teams for no more than 2 years before reaching the Super Bowl, just to clear things up.

McNabb is Elway and Reid as Dan Reeves... I bet if you get McNabb a Terrell Davis type of 2000 yard rusher, they'll look pretty good...

Neither of them is leaving SSR...perhaps not for a few years...

As long as this team makes playoff runs and keeps people buying tickets and merchandise, they'll be in place...

Eagles' Green is right...

Difference is Reeves got to the Super Bowl, he and Elway though were a part of the most lopsided Super Bowls in history.

Maybe I don't understand the Philly culture, but if after almost 1 decade of the same head coach-QB duo they can't get their crap together, then one of them has to go.

The problem is they haven't made consistent playoff runs since the Super Bowl season, they've been scraping by to get into the post-season and it's just not good enough.

Some of it is McNabb being injured, but even when he was playing they were headed towards mediocrity. I don't think they will leave this year, but they have 1 more year to turn this sinking ship around.

Most people in philly agree with you SSR... Like Obama said, "Change we can believe in"

Reid and McNabb have been to one Super Bowl... (*and they lost under suspicious terms...yeah, I said it)

I hope most fans in Philly do not agree. I hope that only the dolts who call ESPN or WIP and spout off are the ones who agree. I think that real fans can see that they have something that's pretty good. Better than what more than a few teams have.

It doesn't matter if you scrape by and eke your way into the playoffs. It matters whether or not you make it. The Eagles did and pushed it further than many thought they could. It's an interesting (and somewhat depressing) sports culture that views this Eagles season as a failure.

"It's an interesting (and somewhat depressing) sports culture that views this Eagles season as a failure."

Agreed SJ. Only one team can win. It's not like there are all sorts of SB champions going around each season and the Eagles just seem to fall short. I would most definitely consider a trip to the conference championship to be a success, especially considering they were in what was widely considered the toughest division.

The goal is a championship...anything less is failure. This isn't 2001 against the Rams here, where the Eagles were okay with getting there...

10 years of solid building and 5 NFC CGs should mean a title. Every other position has had a different player in it (from RBs like Duce Staley to DBs like Troy Vincent) except FS, QB and Head coach...

you tell me, which one of those parts isn't giving us a championship?

I'm not going to be happy about the team unless they're winning...and i mean winning championships...

Teh:

Thinking McNabb to be elite is an opinion. But if you think McNabb, Palmer, and Hasselbeck are elite, but not Tom Brady; that's beyond opinion. That's silliness. I don't even know how to argue with that. That's like someone saying "the sky is green, not blue."

Actually, it's more like saying "twenty and fifty dollar bills are worth a lot, but hundred dollar bills aren't."

I will try to make a case though.

He has an MVP award, 2 Super Bowl MVPs. Last year he threw 50 TDs and only 8 INTs. He has a career 92.9 rating. He turned Deion Branch into a Pro Bowler. He had an 87.9 rating in 2006 when his #1 WR was Reche Caldwell, and he led the team to the AFC title game. He's won 3 frigging Super Bowls.

If you think McNabb is elite, fine. If you think Brady isn't elite, also fine. If you think McNabb is elite AND Brady isn't, then I think you need to seriously reevaluate the way you watch football, or stop altogether.

"(*and they lost under suspicious terms...yeah, I said it)"

If this isn't whining, I don't know what is.

So, your definition of failure came from the back of a No Fear T-shirt?

This is a picture of the Ravens waiting to cheer on their team after their loss in the AFC CG.

http://a323....nqADV5YWEVfv

Steel Town: One pattern I've seen among Eagle fans I've known is that they think the Eagles will win it all no matter what. It goes beyond confidence. In '04 they were up against a 14-2 Patriot team, who had already won 2 Super Bowls, and was 31-2 in their last 33 games. Yet all the Eagle fans I knew at school, and ones that I didn't, were already bragging about their Super Bowl win. It was uncanny. In their minds, they had seen it happen already. They were already pondering what to do with their 32nd pick in the draft.

So when they lose, it's literally unbelievable to their fans.

then they're not Eagles fans...

Supremely confident? You lose enough, and you're never confident...that Tampa bay game was absolutely brutal...and killed the confidence of this team and fan base for...a decade...

I don't know who you're talking too, but they're nuts...I guess being in New England during that SB had something to do with it

but keep this in perspective...

Eagles fans booed Santa...they're terrible people

but when Cardinals fans vandalize the house of the Eagles QB (who lives in AZ)...its just not mentioned

Oh...they burned "Go Cards" in his lawn...a black QB...on MLK day...had his lawn burned...

And Eagles fans are classless?

If I'd been following a team for 2 weeks, I'd probably have no idea how to behave either.

Jut, I was in New York's Southern Tier for the 2004 Super Bowl. Tons of Eagles fans went to my school. We actually had a good conflagration of Giants, Jets, Bills, Steelers, and Pats fans there.

Can't speak for everyone...but all my friends were excited/extremely worried...

Dan Reeves was 2-9 in Super Bowls he took part in... yeah, he went to 11 Super Bowls

Marino played in the Super Bowl.

Maybe it should be rephrased into "He will NEVER be considered an all-time great if he doesn't win the big game."

Dan Reeves is a great coach, but it's not the fact that he lost the Super Bowl, it's the fact that he lost them by the following scores:

39-20, 42-10, 55-10, 34-19.

That alone prevents him from being a sure fire hall-of-famer, and it didn't help that he wasn't exactly successful with the Falcons after the Super Bowl.

What makes Reid/McNabb different is that there is no dynasty to deal with. Not even Fouts could get past the 1970s Pittsburgh Steelers. Marino put up spectacular numbers and as an individual put up records you couldn't imagine, but the Bengals, Broncos, and Bills were the Super Bowl participants for most of Marino's career. His lone Super Bowl was against the 1980s dynasty, the San Francisco 49ers.

We haven't had ONE NFC team since the 1990s make the Super Bowl in consecutive years. If there was ever an opportunity to pounce on parity like that I would take it.

"They've had problems finishing the deal. Neither one of them should be deningrated because they didn't win the Super Bowl."

5 NFC Championship Games in 10 years is a lot more to me than not finishing the deal; it's more like "not being good enough to get to the next level".

The goal isn't to make it to the conference championship game over and over again, the goal is to win the Super Bowl. If McNabb/Reid can't do it after 10 years and missing the playoffs only 3 times, then something is deeply wrong and it can only be looked upon as a gigantic failure.

And it's not the fact that they are losing in the championship phase, it's the fact that McNabb and Reid just decide to be train wrecks. Please note that in my previous comment I say that if a bunch of virtual rookies and journeymen can win a Super Bowl, then why can't McNabb and Reid?

On February 1st, Mike Tomlin or Ken Whisenhunt will win their first Super Bowl, both are in their 2nd year.

Andy Reid is in his 10th year, he's only gotten to one Super Bowl.

Dan Reeves' record is 190-165-2, by the way.

Unless Dan has 10 wins I don't know about.

you're preaching to the choir...

But the Eagles culture is a Gold Standard...of making money

The Eagles are one of the goodest teams ever...and its miserable. The gut puncher for that franchise was the Phillies, a pathetic franchise, winning it all in a matter of perhaps 4 to 5 years of competitiveness...

Maybe they believe that they're just a few plays away...but 9-6-1 and eeking into the playoffs is a world different than where they were 5 years ago...

but eeking into the playoffs makes just as much money as Super Bowl winners...or close enough without spending a wad...

I was wrong - Reeves has 11 postseason wins, so 201 wins.

"The goal isn't to make it to the conference championship game over and over again, the goal is to win the Super Bowl"

What about the remaining 30 coaches? What was their goal? And if it was to win the Super Bowl, there should be some more turnover, right?

And yes, I am pushing this to an exteme. And so is anyone who says that "the goal is to win the Super Bowl" - again, if that is the case, then 31 coaches are not getting the job done every year.

Oh, and Marino lost his super bowl by a reeves-like score. But I don't take it away from him, because he lost to a walsh-led 49er team. Marino was great because he was great - not because he went to a Super Bowl.

What was the goal of the 1-15 Miami Dolphins and Tony Sparano? To win 6 or 7 more games than last year? No, they finished 11-5 and won their division.

It's a "What have you done for me lately?" era, and what Reid and McNabb have done in the last 4 years since the Super Bowl is verrrry little.

That's kinda funny. An NFC title appearance is nothing to sneeze at. The Eagles could do a lot worse. Would they be better off with a new coach and a 7-9 or 9-7 season? How many teams have changed coaches only to see little to no improvement in their fortunes?

How about the Browns? Should they make room in their trophy case for that Lombardi trophy now that Mangini is in town? Or Tampa? Gruden wins a Super Bowl and gets fired. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that staying the course is a bad thing. But it worked for the Titans, Broncos, Steelers and Eagles.

The quick fix is no guarantee. Just like with McNabb - who are you going to hire if Reid is removed? And what if that doesn't work? The Eagles have already tried having a coach for 4 years at a time. Maybe stability is really what they need.

An NFC title appearance is nothing to sneeze at. 1-4 is 1-4 is 1-4, you can't spin it into a positive.

I can - I'd rather lose 4 title games than go 0-16

I'll argue this....er...debate later, I'm watching the inauguration. Speaking of change, it's time for change in Philly within the next 3 years.

Is the goal to win the Super Bowl?

I remember reading a study (no I can't remember where) that showed that economically, the goal is to be successful, but not too successful. Playoffs get expensive. It costs the owner a lot of money and he does not necessarily see enough income to justify the added expenses of the playoffs. This study claimed that the ideal situation is to keep the fans hopes up. Thus putting butts in the seats and selling merchandise without incurring the added expense of the playoffs.

If you believe this, then the Eagles are very successful. Just look at all the fans saying, "There's always next year."

Interesting thought. And I also believe that Reeves should be a sure-fire Hall-of-Famer no matter what his postseason numbers look like. Everywhere he coached, all he did was win.

Thanks Cheez...you summed up the current Eagles "FO" (heh) perfectly...

"I'll argue this....er...debate later, I'm watching the inauguration."

When I was your age we had this thing called school on Tuesdays.

every school in the country is watching it...

Yeah, I know...most of my office is watching it, including myself.

I contemplated playing a drinking game that would require a swig of beer every time the word "historic" was uttered today. I'm glad I didn't do it because I'd be dead by now.

They line was bullshit...he did that to boost confidence in McNabb...

And to emphasize what most people know - a McNabb-less Eagles is not a pretty picture.

Jeff Garcia took a sub .500 team to the playoffs in place of Donovan McNabb.

And how many super bowls has garcia been to? How many title games for that matter?

Well...him being a tool bag is a given. I loved when Mariucci pointed out the flaw in Deion's logic and all Deion did was repeat himself and profess that we will see.

because we take what Deion says with a grain of salt... dude's worse than Irvin...

You have to take Irvin with a grain of coke.

Cocaine is a helluva drug..... Many +'s to Rawb.

Hire Shanahan? Why? So they can fail to even make the playoffs?

"bright young mind?"

Much like Gruden, Shanny has 2 rings...Reid has none (well, with the eagles)

I'm unaware of this 2nd Super Bowl won by Jon Gruden.

sorry 1 ring

still 1 more than Andy

Look, Gruden appears to have ripped up a Tampa team, is hated by maybe half of them and was just canned

BUT THE GUY ONE THE BIG GAME...

Gruden can only win Super Bowls in which he knows all of the other team's plays, offensive nomenclature, and audibles...

It also helps that Bill Callahan is a mental midget when it comes to coaching.

I'm not taking the easy joke there

Point is...he won it.

Since the Eagles got Reid, we've seen the Cards, Rams, Bucs and Panthers...4 essentially shit fanchises go to 5 Super Bowls...and win at least 2 of them...

And all of them beat the Eagles in the NFC CG...and who are the common denominators in this...Dawkins, McNabb and Reid

Maybe it's a curse. The Curse of Santa? The Curse of Michael Irvin?

Well, i certainly believe booing Santa is a curse...but only a curse insomuch of the media attack on the fans...

it frustrates me to no end to hear the same booing of Santa...which was before half of all current Eagles/Philly fans were born as well as the booing of McNabb which was led by Angelo Cataldi (A sports radio douche) and his merry band of idiots...

I distinctly remember talking to my dad about the draft, still a relatively fresh fan (i was worked into it during the Kotite and Rhodes years) and him saying they need to draft a QB...he was right and I agreed...and most eagles fans (the smart ones) though the same way too...

Make no bones about it, McNabb is the best QB the eagles have ever had

The booing of Santa isn't embarrassing, at least it shouldn't be. A few years ago, Islander fans booed the Canadian national in a playoff series against the Maple Leafs. Obviously, the Islanders' roster was loaded with Canadians, so this was extremely ignorant.

They weren't booing Santa Claus. They were booing the fact that the owner was a total schmuck and just traded the team's most popular player for two sacks of crap and THEN sent a teenage kid who just coincidentally was dressed in a crappy santa outfit in his place instead of going out to the halftime festivities himself as was planned.

An ounce of truth is a dangerous thing when you stuff it inside a ton of bullshit.

Philly gets too much credit for things that NEVER happened the way they are "celebrated". Philly Legends are faked endlessly - Ask Ed Rendell... Hell, the "Greatest Philly Sports Legend" is a purely Fictional Character - Rocky Balboa!!!

Evryone has to have a "curse" - does anyone ever just admit that their team's "curse" is merely a prescription strength dosage of "sucking"???

Doesn't make him any less a tool...

I think this guy is a bigger tool than Deion.

Let's see, he has 2 championship rings in total, and that includes a whopping 0 in his baseball career.

The Phillies have 2 championships.

The Flyers have 2 championships.

4 > 2

I'll stop right there.

Oh, why not? Let's not forget three NFL Championships and an NBA title. So, 8 > 2.

And let's also not forget that Deion came in to teams that were alreayd primed to win. His presence in both cases was pretty much warranted so the other team would not have him.

Even though the Steelers lost that Super Bowl, I always loved the fact that Yancey Thigpen caught a TD pass right in front of Sanders and I also loved it when Bam Morris ran over Deion on one of his rambles. Great fun watching Deion pretend he was going to tackle someone.

Oh the great mid-90s AFC Central Receivers...

Yancy Thigpen, Carl Pickens and Michael Jackson...

yeah...Michael Jackson....

Long live Carl Pickens.

@ Sj, the Philadelphia Soul are Arena Bowl champions, so make that 9.

Ha, Philadelphia Wings have like 5 championships...if you're including the Soul...hahahaha

How about the Philadelphia A's? They must have won a couple of World Series.

Sure enough, five World Series wins for the Philadelphia A's. Long live Connie Mack. Well, you know what I mean! :-)

The Philadelphia Barrage of Major League LaCrosse have 3 more championships to add-on.

The Philadelphia Kixx won 2 Major Indoor Soccer League titles.

We could go on and on.

Carl Pickens: Steeler Killer extraordinaire. Him and Facking Collinsworth will forever be hated by me.

Deion and intelligence in the same sentence? You crack me up, Cheeze! Yes, I know this is quite an insular statement, but I couldn't resist.

While no one will doubt Deion's the last true Shutdown CB, and had the most amazing abilities, his intelligence is far below par. All he does is rant and rave and yell like Irvin and Stephen A Smith, without actually proving a point.

last true shutdown corner? you mean he shutdown after the receiver made a catch right? Because Deion can't tackle and guys like Bailey and Asomugha are pretty stellar shutdown corners today

Still no one weanted to throw his way, sure he wasnt a sure tackler but not many CBs are. If I had to choose, I'd throw away from Deion.

Why is there no shutup CBs??

If there was one, I'd have him cover Deion.