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Bheikoop

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How to make a Metropolitan Look Foolish

by Bheikoop
created February 10, 2008, last edited February 10, 2009
10
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Best Trade EVER

“You know how I know you’re…” making an incredible deal???

When you trade a below league average catcher who is owed just under $10M for the next two seasons and a player who had been “on the trade block for many months” ( MLB.com). Even if the Nationals would have received some low level, low ceiling, old prospects, this trade was still essentially a victory for them. But given they moved Brian Schneider and Ryan Church for Lastings Milledge ( ESPN.com), the talented and toolsy soon to be 23 year old outfielder. The fact that the Nationals were then able to turn around and pick up Johnny Estrada makes an incredible move ( MLB.com), that much more incredible.

Let’s break this deal down from the start…

The Mets moved a reliever whom had about a 50-50 chance to be a contributor to the teams bullpen to the Milwaukee Brewers for Mr. Estrada ( MLB.com). This move was made, as per the words of Omar Minaya, because Estrada is a switch-hitting, former All-Star who has been a consistent .300 hitter. Quite high praise from a GM who decided 10 days later they wanted a black hole hitting catcher on the roster as well.

If you are keeping track, when the Mets traded for Schneider they had 3 catchers on the 40 man roster, not one of whom you would consider playing at another position. Given the team had just signed Roman Castro (not to mention overpaying at $2.3M a year)there was no way he was leaving town, so the choice was either recently acquired Schneider or recently acquired Estrada. Both have a rather hilarious ring to it.

To summarize, the Mets moved Milledge, Estrada and Mota for Church and Schneider. Really?

But how much water does that truly hold? Who are these players and why does it matter that Minaya made this move? Furthermore, you may be asking yourself, “, you still haven’t explained how the Nationals made an incredible transaction?”

Fair enough. As mentioned, the Nationals were looking to move Church, so essentially anything they received for him would have been gravy. Church, who isn’t a terrible outfielder, also is not an imposing OFer and will presumably start the season as the Mets starting right fielder. He has a career 113 OPS+, which according to a study performed by The Hardball Times would make him about 8 points better then the middle of the road right fielder. However, if you decide to look into Church’s split stats, you can see that he has been protected from left handed pitching (891 plate appearances vs. 241). In other words, he hasn’t ever been an everyday player. His OPS+ also sits comfortably at about 25 points less against lefties then against righties. So even if he was given an everyday job, he would be a black hole against south paws. Essentially, the Mets are looking at a player slightly below league average to man RF-nice grab!

Who is this Brian Schneider character? He is a catcher who has been a burden offensively for the last two seasons, which is saying a lot considering how low the bar is for catchers (83 OPS+ vs. 105 for right fielder). However, maybe Minaya signed him to be a defensive presence, figuring that Estrada was not going to hit that much better so the defensive improvements would be worth his while. Schneider, according to The Hardball Times’ defensive Win Share measure (admittedly, this is not the best stat, however there really is not a ‘best’ stat for defensive abilities), has ranked 11 th, 25 th and 6 th over the last 3 seasons. This statistic is a cumulative total, so the rankings are not perfect. Given Schneider has finished 15 th, 18 th and 22 nd in at bats among catchers over this same period of time, it is safe to say Schneider is well above average defensively.

Summary, the Mets acquired a below league average right fielder and an above average defensive catcher. Who put money on the Mets to win the World Series after acquiring those two studs?

I imagine fewer people did that than those who jumped ship after finally losing it with Minaya.

How about what they gave up?

Mota, as I mentioned, was really never much of a factor for the Mets bullpen. He was going to be behind Wagner, Sosa, Heilman, Wise, Sanchez, Smith, Feliciano, Schoeneweis and my personal favorite Burgos -a hard throwing, fearless reliever. Thus, moving him was inevitable, and like the Nationals moving Church, getting anything was about all they could ask. However, Mota is still semi-reliable and netting an Estrada or some low level minor leaguer is better then nothing. That said the Mets essentially got nothing except for a bill in the mail for Estrada and ‘cash’.

Estrada is not an elite catcher. However, he has put together two solid seasons. At $1.25M for 2008, he will do an excellent job of keeping the seat warm while 23 year old Flores takes another season to develop. No one is going to mistake Estrada for the 90s version of Pudge, but for my money-or prospects, I would take him over Schneider. Why? Outside of being an absolute dud with a glove, a catcher can make up for his defensive short-comings with his bat.

The last piece, which I actually have a difficult time believing he was moved for so little, is Milledge. The 22-year-old has been rated as a grade A- prospect in 2006 and a grade B prospect in 2005 (although admittedly low) according to John Sickels. If the grades don’t mean enough, Sickels tosses Milledge up against Delmon Young. The results: Young over Milledge by a hair ( source). Mind you, this was in 2005 as both players were entering their age 20 seasons, but this does not change the fact that Milledge rated as not much worse than the bat-thrower.

Entering the 2007 season, Kevin Goldstein at Baseball Prospectus ranked Milledge as the Mets #3 player under age 25. He was rated below the two obvious players ( Wright and Reyes), but ahead of , and Pelfrey, all of whom rated as “Excellent Prospects” ( source).

This is a trade we will look back at in three to five years and wonder exactly what the Mets were thinking. It will be comparable to when the Indians traded Travis Hafner for Einar Diaz and Ryan Drese ( source). The fact that the Nationals were also able to land Estrada for less than 25% of what they were paying Schneider makes this an incredible steal.

I enjoyed how Minaya tried to make up for it with this blunder.


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
Tmil42AAA-er
689 days ago
Score 1+-
I think Minaya tried to make up for his "blunder" by acquiring the best pitcher in baseball and locking him up for 7 years.
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
689 days ago
Score 0+-
5 years actually...He was already under control for one year and he extended him for 5 years.
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KelsdadAll-Star
689 days ago
Score 0+-
I think it would do wonders for your credibility (source) if you would rely (source) less on someone else's opinions (source) and more on your own (source). Nice article and all, but I don't know who to give the props too (source), you or the people who actually wrote it (source)
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
689 days ago
Score 4+-
Thanks Kel,

I'm not sure how much research you have done in your time, or how much research based books/articles you have read, but recognizing and accepting that other people are putting their thoughts forward before oneself is a skill that is apparently vastly under appreciated. That is, my reasoning for using so many sources is simply to back up certain things that I really do not know. For example, who am I to go out and call Milledge an 'excellent prospect'? Certainly I appreciate the numbers he has put up at his age level, but I am not a scout. I had never seen him play in the minors. I don't have the information that breaks down his at bats or v. pitcher splits from when he was 18 or 19, so yes, I rely on those who are experienced experts.

Another thing, I do not have a single lengthy quote in this article.

Lastly, would you prefer I did not give credit to those who I have learned from?
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JuTMSY4Legend
689 days ago
Score 1+-
i think its great that he's (she? I haven't checked) so meticulous with sources...certain pieces of info certainly aren't the authors and more of us should probably give credit where credit is due... With that said, some info, such as trades probably doesn't need to be cited...and you could stand to simply use a "works cited" section at the end rather than your current citation format, but that's just a suggestion
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KelsdadAll-Star
688 days ago
Score -1+-
I read MLB.com every day, and MiLB, and ESPN, and the alumni sites, I already know what those guys think. I'm interested in what you think. Everyone does research before they formulate or finalize their opinion. Read as much as you can, then write your own opinion.
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
688 days ago
Score 2+-
I give you the information and my opinion. An example such as 'two obvious prospects'. This is my opinion that obviously Wright and Reyes are superior prospects. I then back it with a link.
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
689 days ago
Score 1+-
JutMSY4, Thanks, I actually made some edits of this on my blog, having highlighted lines instead of "(source)".
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Delmon Young, a.k.a. "the bat thrower" - So what's it like living in the past anyway?
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
688 days ago
Score 0+-
I actually found that to be humorous. I wasn't calling out Young by any means, just giving him a nick name. Although, I maybe should have called him the 'bat chucker'. Also, if we are not to judge people on what they did in the past, what are we to judge them on? Is it not true that people still clamor over Milledge, Dukes, Meat Hook, etc for having 'attitude' problems, despite having nothing recent on their records?
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
It was weak. I don't see why you chose to slander Young when the article was about the Mets... and no one else (especially when the guyys the Mets dealt had WAY worse marks on their record than Young)

Young also was #1 overall pick (in the past), played all 162 games in his rookie season (in the past) was second in ROY voting (in the past) and only the second rookie ever to have 5 separate double digit hitting streaks in his first season (in the past), was second in the majors in OF assists (in the past), and traded from a team loaded with OF talent for a #2/3 starting pitcher in a market devoid of arms...(also in the past)

I'm sure you've done stupid things we can hold onto for forever. I bet you picked your nose a few times. So I'm gonna call you "Nosepicker"

Consider your audience, Boogieman!
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KelsdadAll-Star
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Lastings Milledge never threw a bat at an umpire, and never got into a fistfight with his manager.

Does he have attitude problems? Sure, name me a 20 year old kid that doesn't, especially when he all of a sudden has money and a high profile career in a high profile enviornment.

But he doesn't have "way worse marks on his record" than the other two.
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JuTMSY4Legend
688 days ago
Score 0+-
he threw a fucking bat manny...he deserves it...
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
No, Milledge was suspended 3 games for bumping an ump (NOT an accident) and only had a controversial rap album that included lyrics worse than Elijah Dukes ever texted his ex-wife!

Young's "altercation" with Maddon did not include fists in any manner and it was cleared up before the next day came. And Delmon never had legal issues concerning having sex with minors before signing like Milledge.

Not only that, but Milledge was a Met, so we know that he has been overhyped - compared to DY or Dukes he is way, way behind them in baseball talent.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
688 days ago
Score 1+-
To be fair, this kid has already served "his time for his crimes" which pale in comparison to severity of other certain ballplayers (alleged?) wrongdoings.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Not to beat it into the ground. Delmon Young turned away and threw a bat out of frustration that happened to hit an ump. He did not throw a bat AT the ump. If he intended to hit the ump, he would have turned TOWARDS him and HIT the ump a hell of a lot harder.
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KelsdadAll-Star
688 days ago
Score 2+-
Wait a second, Young throws a bat at an umpire (on purpose) but you're trying to make Milledge out to be worse because he bumped an umpire? Oh, please.

Milledge was the producer of the album, not the actual rapper.

Milledge was also a minor at the time of the "alledged" encounter which is why nothing came of it. It was consensual between two high school friends. Like the same situation never happened to you.

"Young's altercation with Maddon didn't include fists."

Really, which one you talking about?

Consider your audience.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Excuse me? Why are you trying to argue with me about this? This is going to happen with us for the rest of Young's career or what?

PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE show me ANY source that said Young and Maddon did anything other than yell at each other. MY "sources" say different.

Stop making shit up just to try and get me mad. It won't work either way.

He was pulled from the game for not running out a grounder. There were loud words exchanged, that's all. DY pouted and gave his "I'm not the only one doing it. I'm in shut down mode, see you next year" speech, they met together behind closed doors and the "altercation" was cleared up before they went home for the evening.

Delmon DID play the next game (#162 on the season) but did not start. The END.
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KelsdadAll-Star
688 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm not arguing Manny, just pointing out your factual errors. If you believe DY was traded after just one "argument", then you really are ignorant.

You're access to the Rays was as a journalist, NO JOURNALIST is ever made privy to inside information, Peter Gammons has to make 25 phone calls before he goes on with a story because not one person will tell him enough. You of all people should know that.

You think all you know is the whole story, but it's not close.

Just because you talked yourself into a press pass doesn't mean you know anything, because you don't.

And I'm not going to tell you any thing or show you any source for the same reason the Rays didn't tell you, you don't need to know.

The End.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
KD, it happened Sept 29th, second to last game of a frustrating season - DURING THE GAME, in the sixth inning against the Jays IN THE DUGOUT. It was ON TV. To say there was more than there was, to say fists werre thrown is make believe and well, irresponsible.

What was there to miss??

And I don't believe that DY was traded for ANY reason other than the Rays have a ton of outfielders (and RFs are easily replacable) and NEEDED a guy who will end up as a frontline pitcher (rare commodities).

The Rays dealt a dollar for 85 cents because well, that's the market when it comes to arms.

You have to give up talent to get talent. Agree?
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Manny,

I was simply comparing a prospect whom had similar rankings and reviews. The bat-thrower comment was just a satirical poke. I didn't hold it against him them and I won't today. The fact that he hit the ump with the velocity it was at (albeit a scab ump), makes me believe it was AT the ump. No matter what, it was hilarious and something he most likely won't ever live down.

To all,

Again, this wasn't meant as a way of knocking down Young, rather a 'nick name' at worst.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
I doubt the ump laughed.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Fair enough. YOU can call him whatever you want.

But if you look at the trajectory of the bat, it was tossed underhand and backwards. "Flicked" at best. Even if he turned around to do it (he didn't), it was still underhand (the bat was travelling upwards as it hit the ump).

If you look at the video closer. Delmon calmly walked away and called him a cocksucker. When he was tossed, he flicked the bat behind him. The Ump stood there and the catcher did not react.

If he intentionally meant to hit the Ump, if there was an intention to cause harm by Young, their body language would have been different.

Don't mind me, dude. I'm just a guy that has actually met Delmon Young and talked with him and realized that DY is just a shy kid who happens to have otherworldy refined baseball talent.

(He should be known more for how he throws a ball from RF than how he threw a bat in the minors.)
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KelsdadAll-Star
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Manny, if you think there was only one incident than thats fine, because it was the only one publicized. You can only say what you know. There were more than one, and not just with Maddon. He got into a fistfight with organizational hitting instructor Richie Hebner very early' in the season, among other indescretions.

There is only one reason and one reason only DY was traded, because he broke a code of conduct clause the Rays put into his contract after the bat throwing incident. It had nothing to do with having extra outfielders, blah blah blah. The facts are the Rays gave up on their investment of a number one pick with a multi million investment way before they got a return because they didn't want to deal with his shit anymore.

Young's problems are no longer a maturity issue, the guy is a personality match to Albert Belle and the Rays made the decision to get rid of him before he destroyed the chemistry of the team.

Wake up.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Albert Belle had many personal issues but it was to my understanding that he was a good teammate in Cleveland. I recall that it was Belle that helped his team deal with the loss of those two players that died in that boating accident.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Hebner? WOW. There's a can of worms. That was in Durham in 2006. Hebner had problems with SEVERAL players, including Dukes and Upton, not just Young. And Hebner is no longer with the organization. What's THAT tell you?

Sometimes.... there ARE two sides to the issue.

I'm not saying Young was an angel. But let's face it, A Rightfielder's production is an easy commodity to replace (see: Cliff Floyd signing) and the Rays BIGGEST weakness by far last year was pitching, not offense.

WHAT were the Rays going to give up to get an eventual #2-3 starting pitcher?? Jonny Gomes? Rocco Baldelli? puh-leeze.

It was a deal that made them better. Even if it means trading my favorite Rays, I love it.

Dukes got dealt for pennies and his own good, but I have heard lots of good stuff about the guy he was dealt for - former MLBer Paul Gibson's kid... Whatshisname Gibson.
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Manny, whether he is shy or not, getting into an altercation like the one he did does not bode well for ones character. That is, at a very young age anyone who plays sports is told to not only respect your teammates, but to give the utmost respect to officials.

The first thing Delmon did incorrectly was try to show up the umpire by standing over the plate for what I have timed as 12 seconds. I have seen players whom have gained a lot more respect in MLB get tossed for doing less. Second, DY undeniably said something offensive. I don't know if it was as little as what you said it to be, but given the 12 seconds that he stood over the plate for, chances are it was AT LEAST that. I imagine it was closer to 'scab-expletive' then what you are suggesting. Third, there is no way you can call that 'throw' a flick. First thing, the bat essentially FLIES through the screen. Further inspection shows the bat bouncing off of the umpire and going some 6-8 feet, this is with the ump walking the opposite direction. That said, whether or not he walked away 'calmly' is irrelevant. He tried to show up the ump by standing over the plate, made a comment that he shouldn't have made and then reacted in a manner that I don't think any one of us has ever seen. Even Buster Olney discussed the 'velocity' and 'intent'.

With all that being said. Delmon is most likely never going to shake this, whether you, I, Delmon or anyone else likes it or not. He did something that received a major punishment-the biggest among umpire attacks. While this should not affect how people feel about him as a 'person' given his age at the time, the fact is he made a major mistake and will have to pay for it for a long long time.
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Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Again - Delmon Young has served his time for that incident. Guys have gone to prison and returned to pro sports with less scrutiny. Hell, Roger Clemens deliberately threw a broken bat at Mike Piazza and wasn't even thrown out of the game. Whatever problems Young has had recently on/off the field might be a mitigating reason for his trade (I'm not an expert on either this player or the Rays so I will not pretend to be one). However, it does not seem reasonable that this guy should have to be branded for life because of that particular incident.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
688 days ago
Score 1+-
Agreed, TB...

The people who call this an incident need to see videos of Izzy Alcantara, Jose Offerman or Juan Marichal.

He threw the bat in frustration; not anger or intent ot hurt.
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KelsdadAll-Star
688 days ago
Score 1+-
Manny, you're like a race horse running with blinders on. You're comfortable with what's in front of you because its all you see, but take them off and the picture is completely different.

Call me out all you want, I'm very comfortable with what I know and with what you don't. If you want to continue to have this rosy glasses vision of Delmon because you met him a few times that is certainly an undeniable right, but to consistently defend him based on one or two instances without any knowledge of the whole story only hurts your credibility, not mine.

You win, Mrs. Stiles, the last word is yours.
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
687 days ago
Score 0+-
Tyronne,

I completely agree. I'm not one of the people who thinks that he should still be PUNISHED. But he is still going to be known for this action as it is a once a decade happening.

Compare this to "Rocket" Roger Clemens. The guy who used to throw hard and fast is now a finesse-type pitcher maxing out around 92mph. Are you/we going to strip Rocket of his nickname because he no longer throws hard? Doubtful.
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Steel TownDraft Pick
687 days ago
Score 0+-
Kels, Sidney Crosby and LeBron James do not have attitude problems.
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KelsdadAll-Star
688 days ago
Score 0+-
"Is it not true that people still clamor over Milledge, Dukes, Meat Hook, etc for having 'attitude' problems, despite having nothing recent on their records?" Really? So why do you think they were traded?
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
688 days ago
Score 0+-
Why do you think teams traded FOR them?

This, in my opinion, can be linked to a similar argument that was brought up decades ago when discussing AVG v. OBP. At one time, people saw AVG as the most important statistic, but now people recognize the flaws in AVG and are actually coming to the realization that OBP is not such a great stat.

That said, a crafty GM recognizes that talent is what wins ball games. No matter the head cases, without talent a team will not win. So while there may be teams who do not have an interest in those type of players, there will be just as many who will give them a shot. Take a look at Milton Bradley!
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KelsdadAll-Star
688 days ago
Score 1+-
you missed the point, dude. If there hadn't been anything recent in their records they wouldn't have been traded.

When guys wear out their welcome on certain teams they are given away. Minnesota certainly feels like a change in scenery would do Young some good and feel they underpaid for him.

Milton Bradley is a utility player who is entering his ninth ML season with his sixth ML team. You want him on your team? Not me.
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
688 days ago
Score 0+-
I believe Bradley received the third highest salary among OFers this off season. I ascertain SOMEBODY wanted him and was willing to dig into their pockets.

And I recognize the point. That is why I referenced it to OBP, something Beane and the A's brass saw as a flaw in the market and then took advantage of it. Another flaw, draft pick compensation.

That said, teams are coming away with 'head cases' at cheap rates, taking advantage of a market inefficiency like 'team work' and 'chemistry'. Essentially, paying for those two terms is like playing for 'clutchiness'. Find me an expert who feels that they should pay for that???
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Falcon02520Legend
688 days ago
Score 1+-
Millege stuggled when he came up the first time... he turned it around a little, but it will be interesting what he can do for the Nationals and if he can provide Zimmerman with some protection in that line-up
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
688 days ago
Score 1+-
Hey Falcon, Very few rookies come in and succeed immediately. Also consider how young he was. I don't think we can grade a guy like Milledge as a bust until he hits his 27th birthday, which I ought to add is in 4 years!
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Falcon02520Legend
688 days ago
Score 0+-
of course you can not judge him on just that... but do not completely disreguard this: he appeared overmatched at the Major League level... maybe he still isn't ready yet
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BheikoopSoccer Kid
687 days ago
Score 0+-
As a 22 year old he had a .787 OPS (a 105 OPS+). According to <a href="http://www.h...ing-average/">this study by The Hardball Times</a> he would rank as a league average RFer, an above average LFer and as one of the leagues best CFers. For a 22 year old in a part time role, he was FAR from over matched.
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