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Root4thegoodguys

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How Not to "Manufacture" Runs: The Cecil Cooper Story

by Root4thegoodguys
created April 25, 2008, last edited February 10, 2009
4
Vote

Another gem from the boys at I Remember Dome-Dogs:

Earlier this week, I lambasted Cecil Cooper for calling on JR Towles to sac bunt in the 8th inning against Brian Fuentes. To make my case I utilized a statistic known as Run Expectancy (along with Win Expectancy, but I won’t be using that today). Well, today I’m going to pick on Cecil again. This time for his over aggressive base running and will try to make my case with Run Expectancy.

Courtesy of ESPN, the Astros have a SB% of 80% (24/30) which, on the whole doesn’t seem that bad. But lets break that down a little bit to get at what is bugging me. Michael Bourn is 13/13 in steals this year, so if you exclude him, we’re suddenly 64.7% (11/17) in SB%. Not so good. If we want to get really crazy, we can exclude Lance Berkman who some how is 4/4 in SB this year, which further reduces the Astros SB% to 53.8% (7/13). That’s not good.

All this begs the question, how bad has this been or how bad is this really? If you read the first article I wrote, we saw the sheer value of the out as far as Run Expectancy is concerned (or at least I hope I made my case). However, aside from quoting numbers from certain game states, the famed sabermetrician Tom Tango, has expounded upon the concept of Run Expectancy, devising linear weights. Tangotiger, as he is affectionately known, has done a lot of work looking into how runs are created utilizing linear weights and most of it is stuff I won’t ever pretend to really understand. However, he has provided general measurements for the run creating effects of every single offensive outcome in baseball. Using this data, we can come up with an approximation for just how bad our 53.8% SB% for non-Bourn/Berkman Astros has been for the team, as well as what the continued costs to run production could be if such aggressive base running tactics are pursued.

A stolen base (SB), according to TangoTiger, is valued at .19 of run, purely because it moves the runner over. This the marginal effect that a stolen base has on run expectations. The flip side, getting caught stealing (CS) has a value of -.44, meaning that it marginally reduces the run expectation by .44. We can break the CS run value up further, by looking at how it reduces the run expectations. It has an “inning-killing effect” of -.16 and a “moving the runner over effect” of -.02. The other -.26 is the "getting on effect" because creating that out reduces the likelihood that the next batter gets on, given that he has less outs to work it.

At face value, we can see that stealing bases is a bad proposition because the marginal benefit exceeds the marginal costs -- unless you have a “sure thing.” Like Michael Bourn. But back to what has our SB% for non-Bourn/Berkman players done to the team in terms of run-production.

Doing so simple multiplication, we discover that so far this season, when Cecil Cooper has called for a non-Bourn/Berkman Astro to steal a base, he’s reduced run expectations by 1.31. runs (1..33 for SB + -2.64 CS). While that -1.31 marginal run value doesn’t seem all that important, think of it this way: I’ve already projected the Astros to score about 5.1 runs/game on average through out the season, which means we’ll average about .6 runs per-inning (5.1/8.5 for the consideration that that last half inning isn’t played often times). If .6 runs per inning is what we expected to produce, then losing .10 runs (the -1.31 run value divided by the 13 attempts at stealing) on shoddy base running cannot be afforded, because that’s is a 1/6 our offensive production per inning right there.

I say run Michael Bourn up and down the field, he has the kind of speed and acceleration that track stars dream of so he’s a low-risk, high-reward baserunner. The rest of the team (except for the Big Puma, who’s decided to exhibit puma-like traits on the base paths this year) hasn’t done so well. I can’t say whether it’s ability or bad play calling, so I’ll assume it’s some combination thereof. Thus if the Astros are going to continue to score runs, they can’t survive on some how producing 52 2-out RBI’s in 22 games. Instead, their manager will have to be a little more prudent in how he gets his team to manufacture runs.

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KelsdadAll-Star
562 days ago
Score 0+-
Oh, crap, not another one. If Armchair is going to morph itself into another dumping ground for a bunch on math geeks pretending to know baseball, then I might have to join Manny in retirement. Cecil Cooper is a "baseball-matician", Tom Tango is a "mathamatician". The two don't go together well.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
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Really, I believe the Boston Red Sox and the Cleveland Indians would argue otherwise, but thank you for your rather narrow minded views. If have an intelligent refutation of the article or what sabermetrics actually offers baseball then I'd love to hear it.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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Sabermetrics offer nothing to baseball. How's that for refuting your article?
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CrackajgDraft Pick
561 days ago
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I think sabermetrics lends a lot more to fantasy baseball than actual baseball.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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Exactly right, Crack. Key word being "fantasy."
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CrackajgDraft Pick
561 days ago
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And one link in your article to your website/affiliated websites is enough. You don't need twelve.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
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Sabermetrics is the statistical analysis of baseball, how does it have nothing to do with baseball. It helps projects team/player performance, allows for teams to see, in far greater detail, what their strengths and weakness are. All of this seems incredibly useful to organizations. Listen, if you want to stick your head in the ground, thats fine. You didn't refute anything in an argumentative form. You've asserted nothing other than an opinion unsupported by a single fact or piece of logic. Also, I post these articles straight from my blog and just edited the html into this inane Wiki format, I don't care if you like the style, in fact I don't care what I either of you think of my work. Why should I? Both of you seem completely adverse to actually engaging in any of the ideas I'm working with. I haven't claimed that any of this is 100% fact, just a way of looking at the Astros SB% in a manner that allows for me to try and articulate how poor of job Cooper has done managing in terms of base-running. Like I said, just keep your head in the sand, it's an easier place for people who aren't really interested in engaging in a DIALOGUE about ideas to be.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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"You've asserted nothing other than an opinion unsupported by a single fact or piece of logic" You just described your whole article.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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And stolen base % is SB/Attempts. A player with 35 stolen bases in 42 attempts has a SB % of 83.3%. Basic first grade math.
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CrackajgDraft Pick
561 days ago
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Why would we support someone who can't take a single negative comment about his article? Get a thicker skin for one -- and it seems your awful sensitive about this sabermetrics stuff. And I've read Fantasyland and Moneyball, I know all about sabermetrics and it is my opinion that that there are a lot of intangibles that numbers cannot measure. I'm not saying sabermetrics is bad, I'm not saying your a horrible for person for being pro-sabermetrics, I'm just saying that I think it's more useful in the fantasy baseball world than the actual world.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score -2+-
Well thank goodness you've read nothing about sabermetrics really. Try picking Baseball Between the Numbers, The Book, or the Hidden Game of baseball. I did, in fact, assert a lot of things. I told you what sabermetrics can do, that it can help enhance baseball analysis. I did more than report first grade math. I tried to established a framework work for thinking about what our SB% is doing to our run production, more than just a little first grade math could accomplish.

I'm sensitive about the subject because I've made several concessions in the course of this little conversation ours. You just keep saying that sabermetrics is useless, you cite pretty piss poor sources, and use ad hominem attacks. I don't care that you don't like my article, I'm just trying to coax something semi-intelligible from you. I don't it personally, I just want to here a valid reason, and I just don't like it or I think it's dumb isn't reasoning, it's opinion. This seems to be a losing battle.

So far you've simply said that you don't like sabermetrics because it's not perfect. I said, I know that it isn't, but it's a pretty effective tool. So you didn't actually say anything. You've said that sabermetrics has nothing to do with baseball which is just asinine because I'd be shocked if there wasn't an MLB organization that didn't have an entire statistical analysis (read: sabermetics) group advising them, therefore it must have something to do with baseball. So you're still just running your mouth at this point too. You then site two novels written by people trying to describe sabermetrics, but not actually dealing with sabermetrics to prove your knowledge of sabermetrics. I don't think I have to explain that fallacy.

Anything else with some intelligence would be appreciated. Or you can just tell me that I'm a geeky nerd who loves to crunch first grade math, which, in the end, just demonstrates your sheer ignorance.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
561 days ago
Score 1+-
Can you explain how sabermetrics applies more to fantasy baseball than to real baseball? I understand that fantasy baseball revolves around statistics, but how can you say the stats that are thought of highly by sabermetricians (OPS, OBP, associated defensive metrics, walks, etc) are down correlated to on the field success? The Red Sox revamped their entire team a few years ago, and even hired Bill James himself. The Indians' Mark Shapiro is a notable GM who uses sabermetrics. Look at the teams who finished with the most walks last year. Again, a strong correlation with success.

Yea! Stop all the links! That's too much reading! I just want to read about gritty, old timers who walked 10 miles to the ball field in the snow to hit dingers! Or about the dynamic, team first Derek Jeter! Not about that rapscallion A-Rod, who cares only about himself and hitting lots and lots of homeruns while being the best offensive player in the game. You don't need links to prattle on and on about guys like Jeter. Gritty. Tough. Gets his uniform dirty. No need to include links to prove that sort of thing. You guys seem like:

1) an old man who's stuck in his ways, and refuses to embrace sabermetrics as A way to improve your knowledge of the sport

or

2) a couple guys who just aren't that smart

Either way, wise up.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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Moral of the Day: Don't screw with Kelsdad even if he isn't logged in.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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you're not.*
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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That wasn't me, SS.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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I tried to save it....stupid me.

Moral of the Day: Proofread your comment.

Moral of the Week: Don't screw with Kelsdad.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
First rule of writing is to know your audience. You spent alot of time writing this article, then get offended when you get a little negative feedback. We aren't criticising you personally, and at this point we're no longer criticising the article. We're criticising you. You don't know shit. And your comments prove that. Your looking at justification from me for what I said, yet you're the one who posted and opinion based, yet totally factless article, and get his panties in a bunch when you get called out on it.

Sabermatricians don't know baseball, they know math. Numbers are their life, and probably livelihood. They just choose baseball as the forum in which they earn a living.

I enjoy reading Bill James' stuff. I like reading Baseball Prospectus. But you don't need a math degree or $10,000 worth of software to know if Ryan Howard has averaged 40 homers a year the past three seasons it's likely he will hit that many this year. Again, first grade math.

You are typical of most "amateur" Sabermatricians. You think because you invent some benign stat that you'll end up in the Red Sox front office like Bill James, or writing books like Tom Tango. Read Bill James' books, in almost every subsequent publishing he has made a correction or clarification of something in a previous issue because it has been pointed out his theories or formulas are wrong. And he accepts that. He is fully aware, and accepts the fact that professional baseball doesn't take sabermetric stats seriously, and why. It's just theory.

You know where the term "sabermetrics" originated?
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Tmil42AAA-er
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Society for American Baseball Research?
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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Correct. Reminds me, I have to renew my membership for the 18th year in a row. I'm guessing Forrest Gump knows his audience now.
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Tmil42AAA-er
561 days ago
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I think that's the first time Cecil Cooper's been lambasted for his aggressive baserunning.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
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Actually I spent about 30 min banging the article out. You didn't just give me a little negative feedback and you actually never even engaged the article. You just said it was stupid. I have no designs for books, front offices, or any job in baseball. I'm Law School bound. The blog is a hobby to disengage from school and focus on a sport I love. Sabermetrics is about using mathematical tools to divine truths about the game. You have a very poor grasp of the concept. You obviously know nothing about scientific or academic development. Bill James accepts criticisms about his formulas. I'll accept all the criticsim you heap on my methodology in the article, sources, etc. You haven't. You just keep telling me I don't know shit. Also, I haven't invented a single stat, nor did/do I.

You don't know shit. You're incredibly close minded and just generally a douche bag.

Sabermetrics is a play on SABR and Bill James fashioned it. Your point?

My question in is: Who does know baseball? How can someone who studies the game for a living know nothing about it?
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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I'm Law School bound

A.) Look at Kels' background for once.

B.) That is a stupid, asinine, elitist statement is that?
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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He didn't go to law school (I think) and he seems to be doing okay.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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Baseball is a "hobby" for him, SS.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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Haha...
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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Thank God you have no career designs in baseball, we're better off already. Good luck in law school, have a nice life.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
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How is that elitist? I told him what I'm doing with my future after he assumed what my future is.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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Okay, I've finally read the article and looked up sabermetrics. Could Root4thegoodguys please explain why some of those measurements are even relevant?
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
Score 1+-
I mean, do I need to know about Pythagorean expectation? Kels is right, that's fantasy baseball more than actual baseball.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score 0+-
So Kelsdad is Fortune 100 manager? What does that speak to his ethos? Kelsdad you didn't reply to who is entitled to the claim of baseball knowledge. I'd love to hear that response. Also, the blog is a hobby, but once again thanks for playing.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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The hobby thing is an inside joke.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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Between you and I? Well, you've already proven to not have any, so it only leaves me, right?
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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I never assumed what your future will be, you can however safely assume I don't care.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
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In trying to determine, in quantifiable terms, how players are producing. It's on thing to say that a player is having a good year at the plate, but it's another exactly how good it is. It's one thing to say that the Astros aggressive base running has helped them manufacture runs, it's another to able to see whether it has or has not in terms of run production. That's what those measures offer.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
If you ask me (coming from a baseball know some but not a lot guy), sabermetrics has a lot of probability involved in it.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score -1+-
Kelsdad, that's a brilliant piece of argument...more ad hominem.

"You are typical of most "amateur" Sabermatricians. You think because you invent some benign stat that you'll end up in the Red Sox front office like Bill James, or writing books like Tom Tango." -- that sounds like an assumption to me...

Please, your highness, explain to me who possess baseball knowledge and also what is baseball knowledge.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Hey, you don't know everything about baseball, and neither does Kels....but please, don't act as if he doesn't know jack about baseball.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
So you have to crunch every number down? You can't just use common sense along with some supporting statistics?
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 2+-
so wait...are you guys gonna argue the merits of sabrewhosawhatsit or just bicker?
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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There are no merits to sabermetrics Justin!!! Read the article and the comments before pulling a comment out of your ass, please.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
Score 1+-
JuT has come to save the day.
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 1+-
FYI I'm a few beers deep...
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
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i absolutely think there are merits, like josh said, in fantasy baseball for one...
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 1+-
Point taken, Justin. Have one for me, please. I see Eaton only went 3 2/3 tonight, please tell me he didn't get hurt again.
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
no info on it...sorry...
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
one psssshhhh.... ; - )
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
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Boy, for a college boy you're not too fucking bright. McDonald's is looking more like your career choice every time you open your mouth.
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 1+-
please calm down...
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
Score 1+-
Asking a New Yorker to calm down? Yes, you have had a few beers.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
COTD That comment is definitely the comment of the day!
Thankyou, SS.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
Score 1+-
Pay me back with a plain pastrami on rye my dad is savoring...not the veggie stuff here.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 1+-
Oh, damn, now you did it. Pastrami sandwich from the 7th ave deli in Manhattan. Better than sex. Seriously.
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CrackajgDraft Pick
561 days ago
Score 0+-
I never said sabermetrics is completely useless. I just think that it's more useful in terms of fantasy sports. That's all I said. Is it completely useless in real baseball? Absolutely not. Is it the end all be all in terms of building a winning team? Absolutely not.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Professional baseball doesn't use them. Why? Because they're fucking useless.

Do I need to talk to you guys in sign language, or what?

Jesus.
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
50 bucks if you talk to us in sign language
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
You have video monitor capabilities?
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CrackajgDraft Pick
561 days ago
Score 1+-
Is there a secret trick to the Heineken Draught Keg? I keep getting foam... :(
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
no!

and its effing bullshit!

I bought one last week to take to the park during wiffleball...
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score -1+-
What, did I make a typo? Let me tell you, I've lost more faith in humanity from talking to your close-mind self then I have in the entire 21 previous years of my existence. JuTMSY4, I'm trying to argue the merits of sabermetrics, but everyone else just wants to gang up on the new guy and tell him what an idiot he is.
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CrackajgDraft Pick
561 days ago
Score 0+-
For the record, the second to last comment I made before this one was me trying to be civilized and explain my beliefs.
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
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talk to This guy He'll help you out...
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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Or write a 10,000 word article about it.
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
I will say you find passionate people on both sides of the fence RFTGG...

Davis is sorta the ringleader for the pro-sabre people...

I will say that I don't follow it much at all and one of my best friends (an amateur Sabrematrician) and I duke it out in our fantasy league each year...
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Why is Davis so respected? Because he knows sabermetrics have no value. He understands the entire system is flawed. No matter how hard one tries, the end result is trying to predict the unpredictable, (his words, not mine). And at least he can have an intelligent conversation about them. This clown, and most of the others that have come to this site, (and thankfully have left) just get all defensive about it, and can't offer any reasonable explanations for why they are important or why we (MLB, not the Chair) should take them seriously. Period.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
561 days ago
Score 0+-
kelsdad, are you saying statistics are worthless?
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
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Root4thegoodguys, log in. And if statistics are worthless, math is worthless. He says sabermetrics should be used for fantasy baseball more than real baseball, and somehow someway, you turn it into stats are useless.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Crackajg, you're right and I should have limited by attacks to just Kelsdad. However, I feel I've addressed your critiques.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Not at all.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
561 days ago
Score 0+-
how would you know, also, if professional baseball teams use sabermetrics?
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
*cough* former professional baseball player *cough*
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
How would you know RFTGG?
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
561 days ago
Score 2+-
oh. sorry i dont know every retired player ever by their screen name.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
561 days ago
Score -1+-
books, interviews with major league gm's. thats how i know teams use sabermetrics. they dont just rely on the old, fat scout who travels the nation looking for the next big thing, judging guys on hunches.
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
?? if you think scouts just rely on hunches, you've got another thing comin'
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Really? Prove it.
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
me or him?
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
him
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score 0+-
So what, this former pro-ball player knows everything about every organization? Sounds like this wash-up has a chip on his shoulder...jack ass.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
do you like taking abuse, jackass? You are so far over your head you may never see the sun again, yet you keep coming back. do us all a favor, don't come back. keep your mindless articles for the retards who subscribe to your site, that way, you can win an argument once in awhile. You'll never win one here. Take that, counselor.
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CrackajgDraft Pick
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Yes, I'm sure KD was screwed over by a mathematician on his quest to become a pro ball player. That's a logical assumption...
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Anonymous Fanatic #1 isn't me...I've been logged in the whole time.
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CrackajgDraft Pick
561 days ago
Score 0+-
On a lighter note, I wrote a poem about the NFL draft and it's not supposed to be serious and I was nine beers deep when I wrote it. You can read it: Here <shameless plug>
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
561 days ago
Score 0+-
0f course im generalizing, but they certainly don't put much objective thought into what they do. that can't be debated.
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JuTMSY4Legend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
sign up!
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score 1+-
Shameless plugs are what make the blog-world go round.
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CrackajgDraft Pick
561 days ago
Score 0+-
++++++
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
561 days ago
Score 0+-
http://crosl...abermetrics/

(On how Mark Shapiro uses and is a fan of sabermetrics)

http://bleac...riots-110408

(Billy Beane)

http://livin...metrics.html

(JP Riccardi and Theo Epstein)

I could probably find more, but I'll stop here. Seriously though, I've never seen people so defensive about a subject. You guys seem like the people who were convinced that the world was flat and when told otherwise, burned the scientists at the stake.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score 0+-
You're not winning any argument Kelsdad, you're just Yelling at me.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
you're right, I am just yelling, because you're too fucking ignorant to go away. I won the argument a long time ago.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
561 days ago
Score 0+-
It's nice to see that Kelsdad "uses books for coasters" on his coffee table. Had no clue what kind of enlightened individual I was dealing with.
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Root4thegoodguysSoccer Kid
561 days ago
Score 0+-
You didn't win anything. You just keep saying I'm wrong and you right. That guy just showed that GM's use sabermetrics which proves you wrong. I respect that you played pro-ball once, but that doesn't make you an authority on anything but being able to swing a bat and field a ball -- so just shut up.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
So theo epstein reads baseball prospectus when he's taking a shit? then he tears out a couple pages and wipes his ass. so, yeah, he uses them. none of those articles proved anything. didn't name names. didn't correllate a change in philosophy. and the third one actually said the blue jays have increased the responsibility of the scouting department. you guys are going to have to do alot better than that.
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SSreportersLegend
561 days ago
Score 0+-
Wow, best non-troll argument in a long time.
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KelsdadAll-Star
561 days ago
Score 0+-
As long as your anonymous, you're not dealing with me.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
561 days ago
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Ok! I'll be sure to register on armchairgm.com so we can go mano a mano! That seems like the logic of a man who uses books to sop up the condensation from his Miller Lites.
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Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User Root4thegoodguys | April 25, 2008 | April 2008 | MLB Opinions | Houston Astros Opinions | Cecil Cooper Opinions | Michael Bourn Opinions | Lance Berkman Opinions | Baseball Opinions

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