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About the Author

Mike Ketchen
I am well past obsessed with sports, especially Baseball. My girlfriend often thinks I would choose one conversation with Josh Beckett about his curveball grip over our relationship. It is tough call to be honest.. : )

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Fantasy SS debate?..Not really

by Mike Ketchen
created January 24, 2008, last edited February 10, 2009
18
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from www.thebaseballfix.com

If I asked you to choose between three shortstops and did not give you their name’s, just simply stats and called them player A, player B and player C. How would you choose? Would you look to see if one excelled across the board (considering his position and adjusting accordingly)? Would you look and see if maybe one player simply crushed the rest of the pack? And then choose? Well here are the stat lines for the players from the 07 season.

Player: Avg/HR/R/RBI/SB

Player A: .331/29/125/81/51

Player B: .281/12/119/57/78

Player C: .296/30/139/94/41

Based on these stats from last season we can draw a few conclusions. First, player A was the clear stand out above the rest. He was a clear five tool stud and when you factor in his position (SS) you can make a case to take him as a number one pick and certainly a number two overall in your draft, considering the edge he give’s you at his position. Another way to look at this is to break it down in a point structure. Let us assign three points for the leader in one of the tools, two points for second and one point for third. The scores for this method are as follows

Player A: 11

Player B: 7

Player C: 12

Interestingly player C move’s up to the front of the pack. Yet when you adjust for margin difference, player A still appears a better fit considering he hit 35 points higher and stole ten more bases all the while hitting for similar power and similar runs. Player B on the other hand comes up lame in both studies. He has an edge in SB’s yet it is not double any of his counter parts. Where as player B falls short in margins across the four remaining tools.

If you have not figured it out by now, player A is Hanley Ramirez, player B is Jose Reyes and player C is Jimmy Rollins. The reason for not giving names was so that people would not dismiss the information that is so readily available to them. As I see in every draft when Reyes (a two tool player) is taken ahead of the two true five tool short stops in the game. It would be one thing if Reyes was stealing twice as many bases as anyone in baseball, however this is not the case. Also I am not saying that Reyes is not a great fantasy option. He is, however does he do enough to merit being a top five selection? sometimes we have to pose the question and dare to go against what the "experts" say.

  • if you go back and look at the avg's for all five tools and do the same exercise over the last two season's(since Hanley has only been up since '06) Reyes still come's up last.


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The PipDiv-I Stud
679 days ago
Score 2+-
These blind stat games are always fun.
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Mike KetchenJV Squad
679 days ago
Score 1+-
lol glad you aprove
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JuTMSY4Legend
679 days ago
Score 1+-
Fantasy is like picking the stock market with physics mixed...

Past results do not predict future earnings...moreover, what goes up must come down...

Moreover, player A had a better avg, the "same" number of homers, and a few less runs and RBIs (and more SBs)...oh...and that guy had "just" Miggy Cabrera and then...Mike Jacobs behind him...

Player B had Chase Utley, Ryan Howard and Pat Burrell/Aaron Rowand behind him...not to mention the eventual Carlos Ruiz and one of the better hitting pitcher groups in the league to "set up"...

Player A had much less to give him RBI opportunities...

Hanley is on the rise and Jimmy is coming back to earth...

take a look at rollins 05 and 06 numbers, as they are closer to what he will do in 08...speaking as a guy who's watched his last couple hundred games or so...
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SkipidsJV Squad
678 days ago
Score 0+-
mike jacobs is a superstar!
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Falcon02520Legend
678 days ago
Score 0+-
Mike Jacobs is a superstar... when it comes to striking out, popping up, and doing everything humanly possible to aviod getting on base, and then he does some more striking out
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Mike KetchenJV Squad
679 days ago
Score 0+-
I think hanley is going to be a beast for yrs to come. AS for J-Roll dont know about "coming back to earth" for a few reasons. First his 06 numbers are very similar and second he is developing his power right around his prime(27-32). And player B was Reyes as well. And he is the one I think is overated out of the three.
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Bobbyjim45Draft Pick
679 days ago
Score 0+-
Yeah, Reyes gets overrated because of all the steals. He develops a little power and his numbers become eerily similar to Hanley's.
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Bobbyjim45Draft Pick
679 days ago
Score 0+-
Out of these 3, I take Hanley all day. If you listed season-by-season career stats and age along with just last years stats, I think this becomes a no-brainer.
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KelsdadAll-Star
679 days ago
Score 1+-
Like Justin said, Hanley had Miguel Cabrera protecting him. Let's see how well he does this year. My thoughts? If Hanley's on the board when my turn comes around, I will pass.
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Mike KetchenJV Squad
679 days ago
Score 0+-
keep in mind hitting in front of miggy helped but one of two things will happe. Either A hanley hits third so his runs tier down some but his bi's go up. Or he continues to hit leadoff/2nd and still has hermida/uggla/jacobs behind him. No miggy but no push overs either. I would not put to much stock in cabrerra being gone considering those factors
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JuTMSY4Legend
679 days ago
Score 0+-
So is this the same rational the nationals use too... I mean, I know a Zimmerman/Young/Kearns 3-4-5 is dangerous, but come on now...
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KelsdadAll-Star
679 days ago
Score 0+-
Excuse me, did you just compare Miguel Cabrera to Dan Uggla, Jeremy Hermida and Mike Jacobs?

The Florida Marlins are a Triple A team, granted Hanley's a stud but with five guys in the lineup who shouldn't even be in the majors.

Ramirez will likely hit .300 but his homers and runs and ribbies will go way down, and where he hits in the lineup won't have an effect.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
679 days ago
Score 0+-
first, kels explain to me your premis? How does hitting in an order not affect your stats? second if you actually read what I wrote i clearly stated they are no Cabrera. However No 2b hit for more power then Uggla and Jacobs hit 24 bombs himself. So do you really think A)Hanley will get pitched around to face guys with thunder and B)someone has to score on the 55 hr and 200+ bi's those guys would combine for.
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KelsdadAll-Star
678 days ago
Score 2+-
You claim to be a fantasy expert and know stats and then say Mike Jacobs had 24 homers when in fact he only had 17? And combined with 51 ribbies in 426 AB's, that's not a power threat at all.

Uggla did lead 2Bman in HR and 2B, but trailed in most other categories, some pretty badly. (He also led in K's). He finished fifth in SLG and was out of the top ten in OBP and finished third to last in BA of any second baseman with more than 120 GP.

Hanley will most definetly get pitched around to face these guys, because they suck.

Five bucks says neither Jacobs or Hermidia are drafted in any league you play in. (Not by you).
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Falcon02520Legend
678 days ago
Score 0+-
K D This user loves it when Kelsdad comes in and rips on a guy who doesn't know what they are talking about ;)
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Mike KetchenJV Squad
679 days ago
Score 0+-
forgot to log in for last comment.
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Falcon02520Legend
679 days ago
Score 0+-
For once, I guess I agree with you. Normally, I don't agree with your opinion, but I respect it because you are entitled to it. (I do enjoy these conversations though ;-))

Hanley was my second/third round pick last year (all three of my teams), Rollins came out of nowhere, and Reyes is down compared to the stellar way his career started.

This next year, I think Rollins will come down to earth (but be the best of the three), Hanley will struggle unless this guy really lights the world on fire (if that happens, Hanley will drive in near 90 rbi which will make up for him not going to be able to score as many runs this year), and Reyes is an afterthought.
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Falcon02520Legend
679 days ago
Score 0+-
If Hanley can overcome the loss of Cabrera, he is the clear-cut best shortstop. Rollins is probably the safest pick because when he gets on base, he will score; his stolen bases will be way down this year though (I'd say 20-25 at the most) because with Big Time Power behind him, he will not be running (at yes Jut, Burrell is worthy of being with those other two links :-)) personally though, none of these three are my number one shortstop based on their 2008 potential numbers...
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MattB15Waterboy
678 days ago
Score 0+-
Hanley's the best of them IMO. Tools all around, and I love Jimmy - but the odds of him repeating his performance last year are slim to none. Reyes is overrated big-time, but he's still one of the top-15 in the league.
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MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
678 days ago
Score 0+-
Reyes is the best of the group. He has the most speed and the best lineup behind him. Rollins in next, followed by Hanley. However that is not a reflection on skill, but a reflection on teams.
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Falcon02520Legend
678 days ago
Score 0+-
for fantasy sports, we use individuals stats, not who plays on the better team... as for the most speed, stolen bases and saves are the most overrated fantasy stats; they are a nice addition, but do not focus on them
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AcbabeisonVarsity
678 days ago
Score 1+-
I think speed is an important stat when you look at categories where you don't get a lot of high stats like triples and I would say even stolen bases. How many good base stealers are there any more and how many teams really try to steal? The risk is too great when compared to the benefit. It depends on how many people are in your leage, but if you are able to get two players who steal a lot of bases and hit triples (like Reyes) you can score big points. It's not out of the question for Reyes to lead the league in runs, triples and stolen bases.
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Falcon02520Legend
678 days ago
Score 1+-
Check out Kelsdad's first comment http://www.a...ed_For_Speed? here]
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MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
678 days ago
Score 2+-
You are so wrong Falcon. people who ignore the team that a player plays on typically finishes int he bottom of their fantasy league. The reason for that is that a great player on a lousy team simply has les opportunity. Take Ryan Howard for example. He is a terrific offensive player and he deserves to be drafted high. However, take Rollins and Utley away from him on the top of the order. Put instead Felipe Lopez and Christian Guzman. Its not like Ryan Howard is any less of a player, but with guys not getting on base before him, that is going to cut down on his rbis. With no hitting behind him in the lineup, teams can pitch around him cutting down on his runs.

Thus, when looking at Reyes, Rollins and Ramirez, Ramirez has to create everything for himself. He will have less SBs than Reyes and his runs, RBIs and HRs will all be slef-generated becuase he will have nodoby to knock him in. Remember, their only other decent hitter was Miggy who is gone to Detroit. Reyes and Rollins on the other hand have very deep lineups behind them.

At the end of the season, I would expect Reyes to be the best in SB. All 3 should be around the same in average although teams will not be afraid to to pitch around Ramirez because he is the only guy in that lineup to hurt you. The same goes for HRs, although Rollins probably has the most power followed by Hanley followed by Reyes. I would expect Reyes and Rollins to likewise have the most runs and RBIs because those are a product of who hits in front and behind you.

In sum, in case you haven't got my point yet. After ability, the team one plays for is the most essential factor in a players fantasy performance. Give me the 7 hitter in the Yankee lineup before you give me the 4 hitter in the Nationals or Marlins lineup, thats for sure.
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JuTMSY4Legend
678 days ago
Score 1+-
I agree with MJD in principle...you give a guy less protection and they have to reason to pitch to you...

With that said, I believe the use of his idea would suggest that Rollins is a better pick the Reyes...because Rollins will not only get driven in by better players (Utley/Howard > Delgado/Wright), but has more power...Reyes obviously has the speed...

Anyways, I agree MJD, but at the same time, I don't see Hanley disappointing too much. Plus he might be the best bet in a keeper league...
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KelsdadAll-Star
678 days ago
Score 2+-
Actually, MJD, I disagree to an extent. Looking at Utley and Rollins numbers the last two years, combined with Howard's HR totals, his RBI totals should be much higher than they are. I consider Howard to be in the same category as Adam Dunn, and not in the same category as Albert Pujols or Mark Teixeira. Put Phat Albert or Tex in the Phillies lineup and they have at least one World Series appearance in the last two years because they would have scored more runs.
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JuTMSY4Legend
678 days ago
Score 0+-
Ha, I disagree...

I think you're saying that Pujols and Tex are better hitters (and you're right) and that they'll put the ball in play more and therefore score more runs...but at the same time, what howard loses in contact he makes up for in power...so those doubles that tex and albert hit are homers for howard...

Its really a moot point because even with pujols, the phillies wouldn't have won a WS (which is what i really disagree with)
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Falcon02520Legend
678 days ago
Score 0+-
Pujols = 50 Ks; Howard = 200 Ks

Pujols > .330 BA; Howard < .300 BA

Pujols in Citizen's Bank = I don't even want to imagine the numbers
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KelsdadAll-Star
678 days ago
Score 0+-
Howard hit a whopping .268 last year, JuT.
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KelsdadAll-Star
678 days ago
Score 2+-
Thus, when looking at Reyes, Rollins and Ramirez, Ramirez has to create everything for himself. He will have less SBs than Reyes and his runs, RBIs and HRs will all be self-generated becuase he will have nodoby to knock him in. Remember, their only other decent hitter was Miggy who is gone to Detroit. Reyes and Rollins on the other hand have very deep lineups behind them.


MJD's comment is where I was going before and is dead on. I'm not afraid of a guy who hit .245 no matter how many HR he has, the odds are still in my favor as a pitcher. With Cabrera gone and with an unproven lineup around him, Hanley won't get pitched to all season unless Cameron Maybin and Jorge Cantu' have big years (and Josh Willingham too) hitting right behind him.
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JuTMSY4Legend
678 days ago
Score 0+-
Howard will get back to pre-2007 numbers as far as avg...i'm guessing .280
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KelsdadAll-Star
678 days ago
Score 0+-
This user is a Philadelphia Phillies fan.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, JuT, but I don't think so. Pitchers have him figured out, his strikeouts will continue to go up, everything else down.
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LASportsblogAAA-er
678 days ago
Score 1+-
Nice debate starter, looks like mission accomplished.
Permalink | Reply
Falcon02520Legend
678 days ago
Score 0+-
Its getting time for baseball... best only time of the year in all of sports
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Mike KetchenJV Squad
678 days ago
Score 0+-
thanks! now lets just hope we all support www.thebaseballfix.com in the process ; )
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Anonymous Fanatic #2
677 days ago
Score 0+-
I think Hanley's Rbis and Runs will be down but his Avg. will stay about the same. His steals will go up. He won't have any problem still getting on base so he'll just run all the time because he knows no one will be driving him in from first. Using your logic of surrounding team being a factor for success, wouldn't that mean Albert Pujols is no longer a first round pick in fantasy drafts. He has no good support, oh wait Troy Glaus, ahh never mind.
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Mike KetchenJV Squad
674 days ago
Score 0+-
hey for those who again think a big star leaving a lineup "drasticly" affects overall production. Check out the following link http://baseballmusings.com/ they are breaking down offense's and they just did the marlins.
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Categories: Philadelphia Phillies fans | Opinions | Opinions by User Mike Ketchen | January 24, 2008 | January 2008

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