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The oldest man
Career Naval Officer, UDT/NavIntel/SpecialOps served in World War II, Vietnam and beginning of Korean War and then in War College and Special OPerations. Retired in 1989 at 70. Love fishing, baseball, basketball and most other sports and hobbies. 7 handicap in golf and grandfather&greatgrandfather and greatgreatgrandfather of over 27 grandchildren.

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Fans and Idiots aka Morons to the Core

by The oldest man
created August 13, 2009, last edited October 26, 2009
10
Vote

Watching yesterday's Cubs game wasn't fun for many reasons.  But when the moron threw the cup of whatever in the face of the ballplayer, it reminded me once again that baseball fans, whether they are Cubs fans or not, sometimes do and say stupid things while in the heat of the game.

Baseball fans, I think that maybe it is time to grow up and at least act like pleasant human beings and respect one another's views on the game.  What happened isn't something that hasn't happened before and I am sure it will again, but somewhere down the line, someone (not excluding the player) is going to really get hurt.

And when that happens, you know (of course) that all hell will break loose and maybe ban the fans from the bleachers or field level seats, it really doesn't matter here, but something has to be done to control the fans/crowd/moron (or is it drunken morons?).

Not all fans are like that particular shithead yesterday and thankfully 99% of them are pleasant people out to enjoy a baseball game.  Dumping a drink wasn't invented yesterday. In fact, in the series during the 20's and 30's there were a lot of fans who did almost the exact same thing to the opposing player, but back then the only thing the fan had to worry about was just running from other fans because the fans then as opposed to now were really into their teams and if some moronic fan threw a beer or soda on top of one of their own, it was "God help you and I hope you could run the 100 yard in under 9 seconds" because the surrounding fans used to take care of their own.

Also then, the players were different.  I wouldn't want to be around if you threw beer or soda on Cobb as he was running to catch a ball in the outfield. He would have run your ass right out of the park with him following trying to spike you with his cleats.  I remember lots of things happening between the players and fans in the outfield, and even in the infield.  Duke Snider used to keep a running conversation going with fans in center around the time the Dodgers came to LA in the late 1950's.

Mays did the same thing, as did Roberto Clemente in Pittsburgh.  The fans of not that many years ago, held their heros to a higher standard then today's fans.  The opposing team's players always caught all kinds of hell from the fans when they were trying to do something, especially in the outfield running to get a fly ball or in the corner to catch a possible home run.

I, for one, would like to say that the idiot fans are a minority (thank God), but the ones that keep doing these stupid acts of whatever you want to call them, should remember you will get back what you sow, many times over by continuing to act the fool.

And maybe (just maybe) the next time may produce something that you may not like or could end up in a position that isn't going to be easy to remove yourself from especially if that small stupid act costs you your freedom and a fairly large amount of money besides.  I am a baseball fan, and I'm declaring that yelling at the umpires and opposing players is alright, as long as you don't go over the line of respect and good sportsmanship.  Be a fan... not a fool.


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Anonymous Fanatic #1
108 days ago
Score 4+-
I don't think players are different so much today as they were in years past.

I think the big difference between today's game and yesterday is the amount of criticism players receive today.

I have copies of the Sporting News from the 1960's. It is rare to find any article in one of those magazines that is the least bit critical of any player. I'm not even talking about things like a player having a problem with an inside pitch. There's articles in there about career utility infielders that are made out to be Hall of Famers. So of course fans are going to think of players in very high regard if they think they're heroes are essentially perfect human beings. As far as most people were concerned all Mickey Mantle did was show up to the ballpark, hit home runs, sign autographs for kids before and after then game, and then he went home.

And then people say guys like Arod should be more like Mantle. I look at those people like they have four heads honestly. Say what you want about Arod, but he hasn't caused multiple car wrecks while driving drunk. Mantle did, and he isn't the only member on those Yankee teams of the 50's to do it either.

If Mantle acted like that today, he would be a walking tabloid, and might even be in jail.

But Mantle played in an era where the press didn't report on those types of stories, so the only way people usually found out about incidents like those was through word of mouth.

I will agree there is less interaction between players and fans, but most that I think has to do with the money involved. Now you lose your job on a team, your not just out of the game, your out a couple mill, and players know that, so guys are much more focused on keeping themselves in shape. The only player from the 50's and 60's who I know of that made it an issue to keep in shape during the offseason was Hank Aaron. Everyone else for the most part worked another job in the offseason, and got fat. But it's a chain reaction. Guys don't work other jobs, don't interact with fans in that regard, and are more likely to spend more time stretching before the game, and don't have as much time to give out autographs.

Also free agency means players are now changing cities every five years, where as before the team you signed with was the team you stayed with for virtually your entire career, unless they traded you. You had no say in where you play beyond your first contract. We can go on and on with this, but I'll stop here.

As for the fans, your always going to have idiots. You simply throw them out of the game and move on. There's no need to go any further then that. Some of those incidents between players and fans that happened back in the day really got out of control, and sometimes you didn't see it.

I can recall at least one time where a guy was heckling then Brooklyn Dodgers manager Leo Durocher. During the game Durocher sent over a representative of the Dodgers telling the guy to meet him in his office after the game. The second the guy walked into the office, Durocher knocked him out with a pair of brass knucks.

I don't care what the guy said, there's no need or reason to do something like that, but again it was in an era where that type of stuff wasn't talked about, so most of you are probably hearing this story for the first time.

I wasn't alive back in the 50's and earlier, but I talk to people who were alive then, read articles regarding the era, and try to compare it with today as best I can , and overall I think today is a better game or at the very least virtually the same.

Don't get me wrong though there are certain things about today's game that bother me, mainly how the common fan is being priced out, but if it's so much worse how come baseball and all the other major sports seem to be more popular then ever?
Permalink | Reply
CheezerAll-Star
108 days ago
Score 4+-
Well said Anon. Click here to create a user name and contribute even more to the community.
Permalink
CmdrporterSoccer Kid
108 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree with you in point but after what happened in Mexico City the other day I really don't agree that the fans are the same. I got to listen to Lou about some of the situations he put himself in. And those are the exact words he used. "Put himself in." He wouldn't back down from anyone. One year he and Frank Howard got into it during spring training and you should have seen Leo, yelling up at 6'9" Howard. Even today I laugh out loud just thinking about it. The fans today think they are owed something by the players. That wasn't the case in the 5o's or 60's and today some of them are just plain crazy. As a kid in the early 50's I wouldn't even think of reaching out onto the field to disrupt play or stop even an opposing player from making a play. Most of the time it was the umps that got the trouble from the fans. Jocko Conlan, also a family friend of my father, use to talk about all the times he would have loved to climb into the stands after some idiot yelling his head off at him. Most of the time the fans really didn't know the reason plays were called one way or another. I must have been in my early teens when during one of the winter hunts, Leo and Jocko happened to show up at the same time. On the field, God help them, but off the field they were both somewhat friendly. At least no blows were thrown that I know of. I think my father is fairly correct when he says the fans today are over the top. Or as he puts it idiots/morons don't know when to come in out of the rain. But he is talking about the very small percentage that cause the problems that everyone sees and hears about. Some of the poor fans are only trying to get a baseball(the kid in Chicago) and they don't always know what will happen. Yes, today's fans are similar at best but the earlier one use to do some things that you wouldn't believe even today. You brought up the brass knucks with Leo. Well, he told me later in his life that he shouldn't have hit him in his office, but joked that he should have gone into the stands after the sob and really popped him one. A few years before he get sick he was visiting the farm and he told me would have loved to go after a number of fans and a few players too. A fighter until the end, Leo Durocher was one of the largest personalities in baseball history lore. Today's fan are very likely to grap a gun and go after someone either in the stands or on the field and yesterday's wouldn't have even thought about it. Fans are simply fans until they do something that isn't within the guidelines of the society and then they become, as my father says, "Idiots and Morons and should be taken out of society" he is only joking when he says that but with my dad you really never know.
Permalink | Reply
PmoehrinVarsity
107 days ago
Score 0+-
You can't compare soccer with pro sports in this country.

If you compare the two, sports in this country hail in comparison to the amount of violence soccer has with their fans. I've never heard of 100 people dying after going to an NFL game. I have heard of a 100 people dying while attending a soccer game though.

But the enforcement of these fans is also almost non-existent. I'm sure if the Mexico really wanted to cut down on the urine balloons being thrown onto the field at soccer matches, they could. They just don't want to. I don't blame the fans for that, I blame the the Mexican National team, and the people who operate Estadio Azteca. These are the people who could actually put a stop to it, but choose not to.

Here either you control your fans, or you risk forfeiting the game.

Players don't run up into the stands anymore, and thank god they don't. I don't ever want to see those days come back. There's nothing good that can ever come from a player going up into the stands to confront somebody. There's a fan causing problems, you point him out, and have him or her removed. Problem solved.

You need no more then to look at the Pistons Pacers game a few years ago to know how quickly a situation can get out of hand when a player runs up into the stands. All Ron Artest had to do was sit there, and not do anything. Instead he tried running up into the stands to confront the guy, and by doing so made the situation that much more dangerous for everyone who was at that game. Somebody could have gotten very seriously injured at that game, or worse.

You also say today's fans are far more likely to grab a gun, but I can't recall one incident in this country where a gun was ever pulled at a major sporting event. It's always outside of this country where security measures are much more relaxed, and consequently fans run wild. Thankfully Europe is finally stepping up in an effort to crack down on these acts. Let's just hope the rest of the world begins to follow.

As far as Leo Durocher goes if your looking for someone to defend him, look elsewhere. A character would be one way to describe him, but I feel scumbag is much more appropriate. They guy had mafia connections, and outside of him standing up for Jackie Robinson when he first arrived, I'm really hard pressed to find anything positive written about him. The reason he was fired as manager of the Cubs was because Fergie Jenkins, Ron Santo, and I think maybe two other players (I want to say Ernie Banks and Billy Williams, but I'm not sure) all went up to then general manager John Holland's office threatening to declare a team mutiny, if Durocher was not fired right then and there.

You try to pull half the stuff Leo Durocher pulled, and your looking at very serious jail time. I'm very surprised that he's in the Hall of Fame given all the stuff that's out there about him.

Also the person who wrote the first article was me. (I just forgot to log in.) If anyone wants proof that it was me, in the post you'll see the person referencing the fact that he has several Sporting News from the 1960's. The cover of the October 26, 1963 edition of the Sporting News features Cardinal GM Bing Devine being named the executive of the year.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
107 days ago
Score 1+-
Controlling fans costs money. Some organizations either can't afford to properly control a stadium, or they simply don't want to spend the money to do so.


To control a stadium with 100,000 fans takes tons of surveillance cameras, people trained to operate those cameras, at least 1,000 security personnel (not counting police), radios, the money really adds up. And I can see some people not wanting to spend money because they're going to sell all their tickets no matter how secure the stadium is.
Permalink
PmoehrinVarsity
107 days ago
Score 0+-
If you can't afford to police the stadium, then have the event in a smaller stadium, or sell less tickets. Poor excuse for potentially putting people's lives at risk.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
107 days ago
Score 1+-
So you think the same people who don't want to spend $ to secure a stadium will be willing to sell fewer tickets?
Permalink
PmoehrinVarsity
107 days ago
Score 0+-
I didn't assume they were going to be willing to do it. I just said it's a poor excuse for not doing it. The "it costs too much for safety" excuse has been around since the idea of safety. That's the argument car companies used with regards to putting seat belts in cars.

Safety precautions almost always go against companies bottom lines. Almost any safety regulation has to come from the government. You let the people who say it costs to much to protect people run the show, and you'll have the wild west on your hands.

Again the costs too much excuse to protect people's lives isn't good enough for me, and it happens far too often.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
107 days ago
Score 1+-
It's also the sanctioning body's responsibility to ensure facilities meet certain standards. I know when the NFL mandates something to its stadiums, the stadiums comply to the letter.


In the US, there can also be a financial incentive to spend money on security. We have things like lawsuits, and insurance premiums. But believe me, gross and obscene stuff does happen in US sporting venues.


And I did notice that the US fans at the Mexico game the other day were all the way in the back of the stadium's upper deck, so nobody behind them could do anything like they have in the past.


I just read the story about the water balloons full of piss and crap, and I think blaming stadium security is a bit unfair. At the end of the game, a stadium is extremely difficult to police. Fans clog the concourses and aisles, so if something happens the next section over, security often can't even reach the problem area.
Permalink
CheezerAll-Star
107 days ago
Score 2+-
Pmoerhin, you say, "But the enforcement of these fans is also almost non-existent. I'm sure if the Mexico really wanted to cut down on the urine balloons being thrown onto the field at soccer matches, they could. They just don't want to. I don't blame the fans for that, I blame the the Mexican National team, and the people who operate Estadio Azteca. These are the people who could actually put a stop to it, but choose not to. "

In all of that, are you saying that you don't hold the peopl who throw the bags of urine resposible? That you blame the Mexican National team and the people who operate Estadio Azteca?
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
107 days ago
Score 2+-
It does seem silly to absolve these cretins of such vile behavior. Security shouldn't have to police morons who can't determine for themselves that creating ballons of urine is disgusting and should not be an activity in which a civilized human would participate.


What's wrong with personal accountability? Why can't people just go to a game, watch what happens, drink beers, eat, yell, cheer, laugh and then leave?
Permalink
PmoehrinVarsity
107 days ago
Score 1+-
Of course those people are reprehensible. What these fans are doing is bad, but to sit back and essentially do nothing about it is even worse. Maybe they are trying to do something about it, but whatever they are doing isn't working. I also get the attitude that they just really don't give a damn either. It creates a hostile environmental, so who cares if we're risking a major riot in the building by allowing this to happen. If it helps us win so be it.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
107 days ago
Score 0+-
I thought it only happened once? And like I said, it looked like the US section had been moved all the way to the back so nothing could be done to them from behind or above. Isn't that "doing something."
Permalink
PmoehrinVarsity
106 days ago
Score 0+-
It seems like a cheap fix to me.

It's better, but still not at the level the security should be at.

The idea of crowds policing themselves is one of those noble ideas that just doesen't work. Historically there's been way more problems caused by that approach then problems solved.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
108 days ago
Score 1+-
The good news is, of the 40,000 or so fans who went to that game, only 1 dropped their beer on a player.


The even better news is that Pedro is back!
Permalink | Reply
RomiezzoLegend
107 days ago
Score 1+-
#45 This user is a Pedro Martinez fan.
Permalink
PmoehrinVarsity
106 days ago
Score 1+-
Just to update on the situation, the guy who throw beer on Victorino was finally arrested, and is looking at possible jail time for battery.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
106 days ago
Score 0+-
When that happened, I did want an arrest. A simply ejection for that isn't enough of a deterrent. And hopefully they publicize the arrest as much as possible in Chicago.
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #2
106 days ago
Score 0+-
What is this world coming to when a person can get arrested for throwing a beer on someone?

Shane Victorino's new nickname.

Pussy
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
105 days ago
Score 0+-
It's called being responsible for your actions. Act like a baby, get treated like a baby.
Permalink
PmoehrinVarsity
106 days ago
Score 1+-
"It really is nothing against him. It was a mistake like I said ... It was just an impulse."

Just an impulse I guess to dump beer on a guy.

That right there should tell you just how much of an ahole this guy is.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
106 days ago
Score 2+-
Why? We've all done stupid things. At least this guy manned up afterward and turned himself in. I think he should have been ejected and I did think they should have scared him. But Vic pressing charges is ridiculous - it could ruin this drunken college student's life. Besides "making an example out of someone" is the definition of unfair treatment, as it is defined by treating someone much harsher than others
Permalink
PmoehrinVarsity
106 days ago
Score 1+-
The only reason he turned himself in was because the police were looking for him, and the punishment would have been harsher if he didn't.

And yeah I have done some dumb things, but I've never poured beer on a guy for no reason, nor do I know anyone who has either.

All he had to do was to sit down and enjoy the game. Apparently that was asking too much of him.

I have no sympathy for what happens to this guy.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
105 days ago
Score 0+-
Victorino shouldn't get involved, the Chicago Cubs should be the ones charging him with drunk and disorderly, or something like that.


I give absolutely NO credit to the guy for "manning up" when his face is on ESPN doing the deed.


But it's funny, that freakin kid at Yankee Stadium interferes with play and the Yankees give him season tickets for it. This guy interferes with play and could go to jail for it.


To be honest, I'm sick and tired of the consequence free life people want the world to be. It's not. What he did could be perceived as "just one mistake," but mistakes have consequences. 40,000 people didn't pour their beers out onto the field, he did, so there's something about him that's different from everyone else.
Permalink
The oldest manVarsity
104 days ago
Score 0+-
Raw, I didn't actually see the play but if the kid reached over the rail, you're right on, but the other side is if the ball was in the stands he didn't do anything wrong according to the rules.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
104 days ago
Score 0+-
It was well over the rail.
Permalink
PmoehrinVarsity
103 days ago
Score 0+-
I think the city acted a little out of line, but it's a 12 year old kid were talking about here who simply got a little excited. I can't get mad at the kid. The media on the other hand ate it right up, and really turned the story into something it wasn't.
Permalink
Anonymous Fanatic #3
100 days ago
Score -1+-
This is my 5th year as RD of the race and every single year without fail my Mom, Dad, Portia (best friend since 7th grade!), http://www.louisvuitton2.com/ founder of the race Doug McKeever and many others have helped me in the weeks leading up to and on race day.
Permalink | Reply
The oldest manVarsity
99 days ago
Score 0+-
Then the kid was wrong. But when have you seen any kid not reach over the railing to catch a baseball. I can't count the number of times I use to do it at Yankee Stadium in the 30's and no one said a word except nice caught or too bad maybe next time.
Permalink | Reply
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Categories: Pedro Martinez fans | Opinions | Opinions by User The oldest man | August 13, 2009 | August 2009 | Baseball Opinions

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