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About the Author

LouGehrig
I have been a Yankees fan for many years. Thanks to what has occurred during the last few years, I am beginning to wonder.

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An Expert Compares Mickey and Willie at Their Best

by LouGehrig
created May 26, 2009, last edited August 12, 2009
10
Vote

The following is from Allen Barra.  It presents Mr. Barra's work that he has written, and it deserves to be posted.  It is properly documented and no claim is made that Harold Friend wrote ANY of the material.

Allen Barra, a highly respected baseball writer, book reviewer, and social critic came to the conclusion that Mantle’s best years were far superior to Willie’s.  The Wall Street Journal ran an article on June 28, 2002 written by Mr. Barra, who wrote:

Because both were about the same age, the same size, played the same position in the same city and had virtually the same talent, this is this is likely the most argued-about duo in baseball history.  Over the long haul, the almost never injured Mays was the more valuable of the two.  But that isn’t the definite answer.  Looking at a dozen of each player’s peak seasons, I found to my surprise that Mr. Mantle was the superior ballplayer.  How did I arrive at this?

1. Fielding.  “Mr. Mays was the far superior outfielder, but not by that wide margin.  In center field, he averaged 2.56 fly balls per game, compared with Mr. Mantle’s 2.26.  But break that down further:  every few games, Mr. Mays got a fly ball that Mr. Mantle couldn’t or perhaps, never had a chance to get to because Yankee pitchers struck out so many more batters than the Giants.”

2. Base Running.  Though Mr. Mays was thought to be better on the base paths, Mr. Mantle may have better used his speed.  Mr. Mays led the National League in steals from 1956 through 1959, with 338 out of 441 (for a 76% success rate).  The Mick, who was seldom called on to steal, was even more difficult to throw out.  He stole 153 bases in 191 attempts, for an impressing 80.1% average.

3 Batting.  The edge is in the batting eye.  While Mr. Mays played 591 more games, Mr. Mantle walked 269 more times.  His career on-base average of .421 (37 points higher than Mr. Mays) is higher than any modern slugger’s including Barry Bonds .419 career average (through June 2002).  In their 12 best seasons, Willie Mays played in 128 more games than Mickey Mantle.  But the difference is actually greater since Mr. Mays almost always played complete games, whereas Mr. Mantle often appeared as just a pinch hitter when injured.  Mantle during those years led in walks (1308 vs. 876), runs (1,421 vs. 1,372), runs batted in (1,311 vs.1198), home runs (481 vs. 426).


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RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
169 days ago
Score 3+-
It seems as though the parameters of the argument have been rigged to nullify Mantle's greatest deficiency: his lack of durability.


And a 4% difference in stolen base percentage is hardly remarkable. The fact that Mays was expected to run more often than Mantle more than explains a 4% difference. How many more pitch outs did Mays' numbers have to endure? How many more pickoff attempts? Certainly the numbers prove Mantle to be a smart baserunner, but they don't even come close to suggesting that he "used his speed better" than Mays.


Mantle was only 4% more successful than someone who tried more than twice as often. To me, Mays' 76% in 441 attempts is much more impressive than Mantle's 80% in 191.


And how come you extended Mantle's SB percentage to 80.1, while you don't have any decimal places for Mays'? Trying to make Mantle seem more impressive? And doesn't 338/441=0.766 or 76.6%? How come you took 76.6% and rounded DOWN to 76%?
Permalink | Reply
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
169 days ago
Score -1+-
I didn't do anything. Write to Mr. Barra.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
169 days ago
Score 1+-
Well you're the one who put it up here, so you did do something. Do you agree with his points? Disagree with them? What about my response, do you have thoughts on that?
Permalink
SSreportersLegend
169 days ago
Score 0+-
Did you receive permission to publish this article? If not then please put this under "Hot Links".
Permalink | Reply
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
169 days ago
Score 5+-
Proper documentation is provided. There are no problems.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
169 days ago
Score 2+-
He cited it and he's not profiting from using it.
Permalink
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
169 days ago
Score 1+-
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer

Well you're the one who put it up here, so you did do something. Do you agree with his points? Disagree with them? What about my response, do you have thoughts on that?"

Why do think I posted Mr. Barra's thoughts if I think that DiMaggio was better than Mantle, and that Mantle was better than Mays?

The issue here is NOT who is the greatest of all center fielders. What we are discussing is, HOW DOES ONE EVALUATE A PLAYER?
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
169 days ago
Score 0+-
And apparently for Mr. Barra and yourself, it's via SB% and walks.
Permalink
Tyrone BriggsHall of Famer
169 days ago
Score 4+-
I like reading LouGehrig's posts. A little shared baseball history and props to a bygone era is a welcome daily read for me here at AGM. Without these posts, how often would this community really opine over the qualities of players such as Mantle & Mays?
Permalink | Reply
Captain SarcasticWaterboy
169 days ago
Score 1+-
Or harass him in the comments over the most meaningless shit?
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
169 days ago
Score 3+-
I like reading them too. I don't think debating his points, however, qualifies as "harassment."
Permalink
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
169 days ago
Score 1+-
Thanks. It is enjoyable to learn and/or recall what happened. It helps with what is happening.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
169 days ago
Score 1+-
It's not just Lou that gets into the discussions. I know that Rawb and I have gone back and forth on a few points, and some other uers chime in as well. I'd like to see more articles written about 1970s baseball, but I am happy to have articles like these that focus on 40s, 50s, 60s and 80s baseball.
Permalink
LouGehrigRed-Shirting
169 days ago
Score 5+-
Dear Rawbeezeitz:

I really respect your positions and enjoy reading your comments. Much of what is accepted today must be questioned.

An excellent example is the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry. I started in Sept. 1951. I rooted for the Yankees, but in those days, the Indians were the main competition. Most of my friends who were Yankees fans considered the Red Sox another opponent. Beating them wasn't better than beating anyone else, and losing to them wasn't worse than losing to anyone else.

I try to write about what I remember, or what I want to learn about. The comments are more than welcome, and agreement with the articles is NOT necessary.
Permalink | Reply
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
169 days ago
Score 0+-
Not being an expert on the Yankee/Red Sox rivalry, I'd think that it morphed into its current level of mania sometime around the 1975/1976 seasons, when both teams could make a claim to being the best in baseball. Of course, only one of them could win the division, so that provided some memorable moments between the two teams. Although the rivalry has kind of been a bit one-sided overall.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
169 days ago
Score 1+-
1978 was a big year for the rivalry. 1999 when they met in the playoffs was even bigger. 2003 and 2004 were the climaxes of the rivalry. Since then it's mellowed a bit, but still at a plateau since both teams are competitive.


I remember growing up and beating the Yankees in one game was like winning the World Series. But now, winning the World Series is the only thing like winning the World Series.
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
169 days ago
Score 0+-
Bucky 'freakin' Dent? :-) Yeah, I'd say that was a biggie. I'm just glad the Phillies won in 2008, so I have some recent taste of what it was like to celebrate a World Series win.
Permalink
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Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User LouGehrig | May 26, 2009 | May 2009 | MLB Opinions | Mickey Mantle Opinions | Willie Mays Opinions | New York Yankees Opinions | New York Giants Opinions

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