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Rawbeezeitz
Just appreciate the Twilight Zone and stop trying to remake or copy it. It was perfect and cannot be duplicated.

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A Red Sox Fan Praises a Yankee Legend

by Rawbeezeitz
created June 29, 2009, last edited July 23, 2009
12
Vote

I hate the Yankees. One of the few things I hate more than the Yankees is the Save. Saves are an overrated measurement of baseball worth. The Derek Jeter of baseball stats, so incredibly overrated. Saves are frequently easy, occasionally strange, and very often the 9th isn’t the most vital inning to securing a victory. And sometimes Manny Ramirez makes Saves extra easy.



Saves are an awful stat, unless you have 500 of them. Then they become something else. Not that there’s much difference between 499 and 500, but we like round numbers.


To get 500 Saves requires longevity, a rare thing to find in bullpens. After all, these are pitchers who couldn’t cut it as starters. That’s at least how Mariano Rivera became a reliever, by failing as a starter. He made 10 starts in 1995, going 3-3 with a 5.94 ERA. But he still had a good pitch (that infamous cutter), and a good arm, so he became John Wetteland’s set-up man. He recorded 26 Holds (which is like a Save for mid-relievers) in 1996, and on May 17th he put Save #1 in the books. It was one of those easy Saves. The Yankees led the Angels 8-5, and Rivera was facing the 8-9-1 hitters. Since then, he’s been a personification of baseball history.



But are 500 Saves on the same level of achievement as say 300 wins? Is there a stigma to the accomplishments of a relief pitcher compared to a starter? After all, a starter is more important to a team than a reliever. Relievers are specialists, 3rd down running backs, penalty killing forwards. Rivera couldn’t make the grade as a starter. Understandable as he only has two pitches in his arsenal.


But doesn’t it say something about how nasty those two pitches are, that he can throw them for 15 seasons without anyone really figuring them out? Jonathan Papelbon has a similarly limited repertoire, and he’s now struggling as hitters have gotten to know him better. Closers have notoriously short shelf-lives. Just look at Eric Gagne.


89% of the time Rivera has taken the mound in a Save opportunity, he’s gotten the S in the boxscore That’s extraordinary. In hold ‘em, 7-2 offsuit has the same chance of beating pocket Aces, as opposing teams have of beating Rivera.



The 500 Save Club is currently quite exclusive, with only Rivera and Trevor Hoffman. And it should stay small unless Billy Wagner explodes. If K-Rod continues to be a mutant, he’ll probably inaugurate the 600 Save Club. It’s a new club, a product of baseball’s Specialization Era. But even in such an age, where guys like Roberto Hernandez and Jose Mesa are high on the all-time Saves list, reaching the number 500 is truly a mountainous achievement.


I’m not a Rivera fan. But you have to respect the guy. 500 Saves is 500 Saves is 500 Saves. And as a baseball fan, I’m glad to have seen him pitch. Even though as a Red Sox fan, I’m even gladder to have seen one of his 61 Blown Saves, on April 13, 2002. Thanks Shea Hillenbrand!

Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
152 days ago
Score 1+-
AGM has a case of the Mondays.
Permalink | Reply
JuTMSY4Legend
152 days ago
Score 3+-
KRod...pffffffff hahahahaha
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
152 days ago
Score 3+-
He's 27 with 228 saves. Rivera had 48 at that point.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
152 days ago
Score 3+-
At that age^
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
152 days ago
Score 3+-
He also wants to fight Brian Bruney

And, unlike Mr. Stoic - Mariano Rivera, he's a little too lively for my tastes

Well, at least there was Luis Castillo...
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
152 days ago
Score 2+-
Rivera definitely has a great attitude for what he does. I remember in '05, he'd blown 2 saves against the Sox in New York, then when the Yankees came to Boston, he got a standing ovation for the blown saves, so he tipped his cap and laughed.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
152 days ago
Score 3+-
Why give them more ammunition to try and rattle you?

I think KRod's a fine closer, but I also think he's a dick

He's also a Met, so that's 2 strikes

Saves are also a worse stat then wins...arbitrarily speaking
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
152 days ago
Score 2+-
K-Rod is definitely a dick. I doubt that he'll hold up as well as Mariano has. The whole thing with Bruney was ridiculous. I thought what Bruney said was funny, personally.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
152 days ago
Score 1+-
Its alright, we have Rollins and Hamels You guys have Reyes (whom I absolutely loathe), Beltran (just kinda funny) and now KRod (to replace Wagner...ironically)
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
152 days ago
Score 1+-
I love it when Beltran tries to be a tough guy. He's so laid-back most of the time that it's funny when he acts out.
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
152 days ago
Score 1+-
And I agree on Reyes. He's a fine player but he's such a douche.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
152 days ago
Score 2+-
Speaking of Wagner, he has an outside shot to reach 500 saves as well.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
152 days ago
Score 1+-
Yeah, I thought Beltran's response in 2008 was funny. Kinda like when the Bully threatens you and you respond (but your voice cracks). He's a fine player, that situation was just odd...he's one of those guys who's better off leading by example Wright is/should be the leader of that club anyway
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
152 days ago
Score 0+-
Wright really is the team leader at this point. The only way that was going to happen was if Delgado and Beltran were out of the picture. With the two of them on the disabled list, it's only natural that Wright would step in. It's pretty hard to tell, though, based on the sweep this weekend, if he's effective. You can't tell anything when your starting lineup includes Argenis Reyes, Daniel Murphy, and Jeremy Reed.
Permalink
CheezerAll-Star
152 days ago
Score 1+-
To me, the save has become easy much of the time. I think the criteria for a save needs to be redefined. If the pitcher comes in and gives up several hits or even a run or two, but the team still gets the win, that's not a save.

A save is coming in with the game on the line and shutting down the opponent.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
152 days ago
Score 1+-
One qualification for a save is to preserve the win with the tying or go-ahead run either on base or at bat or on deck. If it were limited to on base or at-bat, that would work. If it's a 3 run game, but the bases are loaded, that should be a save. I also think reducing the qualification of a 3 run lead to a 2 run lead would be good enough.
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
152 days ago
Score 2+-
I'm a proponent of scrapping the entire concept of the save. It's so arbitrary and ridiculous. I don't think there's any other statistic that managers manage to. The entire point of a closer is to get a save. If there hadn't been a save stat, managers would just use their best relievers in the most crucial situation, whether that be the 7th, 8th, or 9th inning. If you think about it, the entire thing is just backwards.
Permalink
JuTMSY4Legend
152 days ago
Score 1+-
When Matt Stairs gets an AB, I sometimes think Charlie Manuel is managing to the Home Run statistic...
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
152 days ago
Score 0+-
I think selecting a guy who just pitches in the 9th when you have a close lead makes sense. But automatically using someone because it's a 3 run game, even if the 7-8-9 hitters are up, is a waste of that talented pitcher.
Permalink
CheezerAll-Star
152 days ago
Score 1+-
Thanks for the clarification. As a non-baseball fan, I was unaware of the tying/go ahead rule qualifier.

I still think it may be too easy. Up by there with two outs and the bases loaded? What are the odds of a home run? What are the odds of a three run double? What are the odds of an out? I would think that it's much easier to get that out with a three run lead than it is with a one run lead.
Permalink
CheezerAll-Star
152 days ago
Score 1+-
there = three
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
152 days ago
Score 1+-
The three kinds of saves:


pitching the last 3 innings, regardless of the deficit


pitching at least 1 inning with a 3 run lead or less


pitching at least 1/3 inning with the tying run on base, at bat, or on deck


I think we can modify these to make Saves less of a BS stat. The 3 inning save should be tossed outright. The 3 run save should be reduced to 2 runs. The tying run save should be limited to the tying run at bat.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
152 days ago
Score 0+-
at bat or on base^
Permalink
Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
151 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm glad to read that someone hates the save as much as I do. And I would also say that 500 saves is not in the same ballpark (haha) as 300 wins. Of course, I think the hold is even more moronic a stat than the save, but that's another discussion.


I will agree that if you're going to have to deal with saves, that 500 is an awful lot of them. And even though it doesn't sit well with me, if you're going to put pitchers into the Hall of Fame based on saves, Rivera would be a good yardstick to use.
Permalink | Reply
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
151 days ago
Score 0+-
300 wins may be more impressive, but only two pitchers have recorded 500 Saves. I think being able to get by for so long on 1 or 2 pitches is impressive. Perhaps as impressive as 300 wins, just in a different way.


I don't mind Holds. If you have Saves, why not Holds. I still think WHIP and inherited runners are the better way to appraise a relief pitcher. Rivera has a career WHIP of 1.02, not to mention his 0.75 postseason WHIP.
Permalink
RawbeezeitzMajor Leaguer
151 days ago
Score 1+-
Speaking of BS Saves, Jonathan Papelbon of the Red Sox earned Save #19 of the season by getting 1 out in a 4-0 game. He came in with 2 on and 2 out, so the tying run was on deck. That shouldn't be a Save.
Permalink | Reply
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Categories: Opinions | Opinions by User Rawbeezeitz | June 29, 2009 | June 2009 | MLB Opinions | Boston Red Sox Opinions | New York Yankees Opinions | Baseball Opinions | Mariano Rivera Opinions

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