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AKittell
I'm a lifelong Packer season ticket holder, with passion for baseball, football and college basketball. Most recently became 20 game ticket holder for the Milwaukee Brewers, since I live about five minutes from Miller Park.

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'Wins' the Worst Stat in Baseball

by AKittell
created April 15, 2008, last edited February 10, 2009
14
Vote

If you think for one second that the number of wins accumulated by a pitcher represents how good they are, you are a delusional fan who has been duped by the hundreds of beat writers around the country. I'm sick of reading over and over again how the Milwaukee Brewers Dave Bush deserves a job with the team because he's won 24 games for the team over the last two years. Who cares?! If anybody actually paid attention, they would find out that four of those wins were in relief, and the remaining twenty wins weren't all that impressive.

But let me ask you a question: Who were top 5 starters of 2007? Right away, you have to toss in Josh Beckett, Jake Peavy and Brandon Webb based on the seasons they had, but then after that, it's a toss-up. From Fausto Carmona to Brad Penny to John Lackey. How many other 18 or 19 game winners do you want me to throw in there? But can we really neglect the 14 or 15 game winners like Johan Santana (15), John Smoltz (14) or even Joe Blanton (14)? Are they not as good of a pitcher as say Tim Wakefield who accumulated 17 wins last year? Is Paul Byrd a better pitcher than Felix Hernandez because he had one more win?

It's just not fair to say that the number of wins accumulated by a pitcher is representative of their success as a pitcher. If anything, pitcher wins are effectively a stat that represents the entire pitching staff as well as a teams ability to tack on runs. The scenarios are endless when it comes to getting wins. Remember, you can give up 7 runs in the 5th inning, be down 8-0 when you leave and still get the win. Okay, a bit far-fetched, but how about poor defense resulting in a few unearned runs, that turn your 5 inning 5 run performance into a win? But there's still more to it. You have to consider all of the ways a guy can lose a win, like a poor bullpen or a couple of errors on the defensive side of things.

So what do you do to determine if your pitcher is any good? ERA and WHIP are usually the best bets, but I wonder what it would take to tack on a few more stats for us fanatics. How many times has a pitcher left the game on the hook for a loss, or for a win, or with a tie? All we see is W, L or ND in the box score. You can then figure out for yourself how he left the game, but at the end of the season, who led the league with the most potential wins and what is a pitcher's corrected record? That would be a lot more representative of how good a pitcher has been. Just ask 2006 Chris Capuano or 2005 Doug Davis how many wins they should have had and the pay they would have accrued if those stats actually showed up.


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
TylersaltAll-Star
575 days ago
Score 4+-
ERA is no good either. The definition of an earned run (touched on by your article) is arcane and convoluted. Think about Matt Cain this year, who could lead the NL in strikeouts and losses. If you're thinking about value, the best stat to compare pitchers is something like K/BB or WHIP. Saves are equally ridiculous.
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AKittellVarsity
575 days ago
Score 1+-
I agree that ERA is kind of poor by itself, but if you look at WHIP and ERA together they work pretty well. K/BB really doesn't do much for me though because non-K pitchers have just as much talent as those who do throw K's.
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RomiezzoLegend
575 days ago
Score 0+-
I was wondering what you guys would think about the "RA" stat (runs allowed). I think that's a little more accurate.
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Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 1+-
Pitchers largely have little control over balls put into play. Most pitchers end up with BABIP of around .300. If you can stop a batter from putting the ball in play, namely through a strikeout, you don't have to worry about it.
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AKittellVarsity
575 days ago
Score 0+-
RA is probably a pretty good stat. You could say that there are a lot of hard luck runs given up by some pitchers, but in the end they should conceivably even out.
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IbeargRed-Shirting
575 days ago
Score 3+-
wins and saves are very flawed stats, but i think there's definitely some value in them as well. if the other guy goes out there and pitches well can you match him? if your team goes out and scores alot of runs can you pitch well with that lead? Yes there are problems with it and thats why despite getting 17 wins last year tim wakefield isn't getting a huge paycheck. wins are simply one stat to look at when evaluating pitchers, certainly not the best but i think they do have some value.
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
575 days ago
Score 1+-
Wilbur Wood is an interesting character study for the win. From 1971-1974, Wood won 22, 24, 24 and 20 games. His losses for those seasons were 13, 17, 20 and 19. A 24-20 record at least gives him the right to say he was a definitive factor in those games. Imagine a pitcher today having 44 decisions.
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TrizzAll-American
575 days ago
Score 2+-
Alot of pitcher stats are pretty ridiculous, but since we live in an era where sports nerds love to go by the numbers, more and more meaningless stats will be added
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
575 days ago
Score 1+-
A good point. Look at the strikeout. I've always felt it was the primo stat for a pitcher, but it doesn't tell a lot of the story. Nolan Ryan's career win/loss isn't all that great, but his K numbers are incredible. Of course, this is undermined by guys like Clemens, who has a really good w/l and an amazing number of Ks.
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Niteowl049AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 3+-
Managers have a lot to do with wins. A manager with a quick hook can keep a pitcher from getting a few wins a season. A pitcher can pitch a great game for 6 or 7 innings then in the first inning with the new reliever he could give up so many runs the starter gets a no decision.
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AKittellVarsity
575 days ago
Score 2+-
Okay, we all pretty much agree that ERA and wins are pretty much useless stats, though I think ERA is probably better. WHIP is always a pretty good look, but sinker ballers kind of get the shaft there because they catch a high ground ball ratio and tend to get more DPs. So then what stat, new or old would you guys most likely look at to determine if a guy is any good? At Baseball Prospectus they use WORP and VORP (Value or Wins Over Replacement Player) and use a big ass calculation. But there's got to be something simpler that we could use. Unfortunately I have a feeling any stat we bring up would be flawed.
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Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 3+-
I don't think it's so much that the stats themselves are flawed. I think you're looking for one all-encompassing stat to give you an idea at who's the best, but I'm not sure you'll find one. I, personally, believe that you need to look at a variety of statistics, including WHIP, ERA+, K/BB, etc.
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AKittellVarsity
575 days ago
Score 0+-
So try and combine them in a reasonable way so that they become one stat like WARP or VORP, but with less work. I could definitely see it working out. You'd just have to figure out what sort of weighted system to use.
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Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 2+-
I think that wins, back when starting pitchers actually stayed in the game for 8 or 9 innings, could have been a slightly better indicator of pitching ability. That being said, it still isn't a good indicator. Steve Traschel won 15 games for the Mets in 2006.

I like ERA+ and WHIP, personally.

And I think saves are the worst stat in baseball. Look up Wes Littleton's game on August 22, 2007 for details.
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MegECass110AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 3+-
And then go watch Tim Kurkjian's reaction... "The Rangers won by 27 runs, AND WES LITTLETON GOT THE SAVE!"
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 2+-
I think he had a Kurkgasm at that point.
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
575 days ago
Score 1+-
Don't you love it when his voice breaks a la Peter Brady when he gets really excited?
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Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 0+-
He's the best. He really is.
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TrizzAll-American
575 days ago
Score 2+-
SV This user thinks saves are just used to make closers feel important for their brief appearances
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Sj-hypocycloidAll-American
575 days ago
Score 1+-
I'm glad to know I'm not alone in my disdain for the save
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
575 days ago
Score 0+-
I'll take one "save" over a million "holds" any day!!!
Permalink
RomiezzoLegend
575 days ago
Score 2+-
I hate the fact that set-up men hardly get any recognition in the Major Leagues anymore. I'm sure a lot more people know who Joe Borowski is compared to Rafael Betancourt (who is a much better pitcher BTW). That's just one example.
Permalink
TrizzAll-American
575 days ago
Score 0+-
Borowski sucks...he's killing me
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
575 days ago
Score 0+-
"Stats" only tell you what has already occured and nothing about what will...


Stats go into games saying "the Patriots are undefeated so they will win the Super Bowl"
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AKittellVarsity
575 days ago
Score 0+-
Actually, the undefeated record is usually an indicator that they should lose soon based on the history of the game. There's so much variability in games because talent doesn't always come through because strategy makes a difference. Hence why Philly and Baltimore almost beat NE in the regular season. It was going to catch them sometime.
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
575 days ago
Score 2+-
So if they're 18-0, they're due for a loss? No, that would be an example of the Gambler's Fallacy...
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 2+-
Could that alternatively be named the Tim Donaghy Fallacy?
Permalink
AKittellVarsity
575 days ago
Score 0+-
Unfortunately these events are not totally random.
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 2+-
Yes, but operating under the ceteris paribus assumption (because, unfortunately, it's impossible to quantify all variables), a team has the same chance of winning on one night (be it 40%, 80%, or .001% if you're the San Francisco Giants) as they would on any other night.


Wow. I actually sounded smart there. I'd better stop that.
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
575 days ago
Score 1+-
I mean, perhaps the psychological toll of an undefeated season would lower your probability of winning with each successive week, but we can't really quantify that, and besides, its effect is probably small when compared to the effect of the players' overall skill levels.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
575 days ago
Score 3+-
And the most meaningless stat in baseball is the GWRBI - in fact, it was SO meaningless they actually GOT RID OF IT!!!


When the statgeeks eliminate a stat they created, you know it's no good.
Permalink | Reply
LASportsblogAAA-er
575 days ago
Score 1+-
The best way still to evaluate the abilities of a player is to watch them for yourself.
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AKittellVarsity
575 days ago
Score 1+-
We all do, but there's no tangible way to distinguish between two really similar pitchers. Sometimes the slightest difference in talent can go unnoticed. As a result, stats are almost a necessity because as they accumulate over the years and guys revert to their mean, differences become more readily apparent. It's being able to see those things before they come that make scouts an important part of baseball.
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
575 days ago
Score 4+-
Tacos and beer, my friend... More information is better than less information.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
575 days ago
Score 2+-
But "past returns are no indication of future success".

Investors that chase returns create capital losses, not capital gains. I personally think scouting is VERY MUCH like investing... numbers are nice to look at and rationalize events ("rational lies") but reality is a much better indicator.

When you KNOW what you're looking for, it's easier to see it - that's true for stats AND scouting.


(But I'm not saying stats are worthless)
Permalink
Davis21wylieMVP
575 days ago
Score 3+-
Which brings us back to why wins are a bad way to evaluate pitchers... They have no predictive value -- past W-L record correlates poorly to future W-L record. Past returns don't indicate future success.


However, not all stats are this way. Component stats that reflect skills (K rate, BB rate, XBH rate or failing that HR rate) are relatively stable from year to year -- these are the stats that do predict future performance. Same goes for batters, with K rate, walk rate, isolated power, etc.


The only reason it appears as though past stats don't predict future stats is that throughout the history of baseball, fans have been taught to look at the wrong stats, like W-L record. Look at the stats which try to isolate a player's skills independent of situation or teammates, and combine that with scouting data about said skills, and it's actually not hard to make accurate projections about the future. "When you KNOW what you're looking for, it's easier to see it - that's true for stats AND scouting."
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 2+-
More plusses if I could. That's exactly what I want to say but don't know how. You're smart.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
575 days ago
Score 1+-
Tmil demonstrates his "statistical greatness" with another exemplary representation of his high plus/comment ratio... The only Wins and losses that matter are in the standings and the wins that matter most are the ones during the last game of the season.
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 1+-
Oh, Manny, there you go, showing that statistics can be used to delude people. I have no greatness, statistical or otherwise.
Permalink
KelsdadAll-Star
575 days ago
Score 0+-
This might be the most pointless thread I've seen here. Typical stats geeks, trying to pretend they know what they're talking about by hiding behind math formulas and what someone else says.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
575 days ago
Score 0+-
You know what I always say...

No, not the "baseball isn't played on spreadsheets" one... the other one...

"Baseball isn't played by stat geeks!"
Permalink
Tmil42AAA-er
575 days ago
Score 1+-
That hurts, Kelsdad. It really does. And Manny, baseball isn't played by stat geeks (except Brian Bannister), but intramural softball is.
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KelsdadAll-Star
575 days ago
Score 0+-
Truth usually does, Tmil.
Permalink | Reply
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Categories: Aaron Kampman fans | Opinions | Opinions by User AKittell | April 15, 2008 | April 2008 | MLB Opinions | Milwaukee Brewers Opinions | Pitching Opinions

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