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All outs are NOT created equal - the Strikeout rebuttal.

11
Vote

by user Manny Stiles

You "moneyball" kids are funny. Stats say stats are the most statistically important statistical part of baseball.

Baseball is the most wonderful, unique game in the world (at least to me).

And NO, this doesn't need to be a showdown, because I will end the argument now.

The Strikeout Debate
Award Race: August 28
Why Strikeouts Do Matter
All outs are NOT created equal - the Strikeout rebuttal.
Why Strikeouts Do Matter: Going Deeper

Baseball is played on dirt and grass, not on a calculator or spreadsheet

My rebuttal to...this... Strikeout pitchers DO NOT tend to be 'control pitchers', Strikeouts are NOT paramount to a pitcher's success. GOOD to GREAT pitchers LEARN control, regardless of their K ratios. And GREAT pitchers just get guys out. Period.

It's great that you took the last three years' stats to devise your argument, since strikeouts/at bat are higher than ever...

Here, let's look at active career K/BB ratios coming into the season and you tell me if power pitchers are the common theme amongst true 'control pitchers'...

Oh yeah, There's a bunch of knuckleballers that struck out guys in voluminous amounts, too. NO ONE will ever confuse a knuckleballer for a 'control pitcher'.

My point was great pitchers get strikeouts on pitches that aren't strikes and they get groundouts/pop ups on pitches that ARE strikes (see Greg Maddux #13 on the all-time K list - would you call him a 'strikeout pitcher'?). That's what makes them GREAT pitchers, not 'strikeout pitchers'. But they also get double play groundouts when they need them too.

Take a look at this list career K's/9. Sure the First 6-7 guys were all badass pitchers in every category, but then the list starts to go DOWNHILL from there... Hideo Nomo? Dan Plesac? Eric (Ker) Plunk? Would you take ANY of those guys over a sinkerball pitcher like Brandon Webb that gets 3 ground balls to every flyball?

No One has EVER struck out all 27 in a MLB game

So what happens when a strikeout pitcher, usually a guy that throws some strikes (obviously) DOESN'T strike out a batter?

Pitches thrown hard do seem to get hit A LONG WAY! (I've given up Home Runs that still haven't landed)

If you want to stick to a good argument try WHIP/9, since baserunners are more important for a pitcher to 'control' ERA, affects the scores of games and who wins/loses more than strikeouts. But even WHIP/9 has some holes as a statistical analysis tool. it doesn't take into account what the baserunners do. Do they distract the pitcher? Do they execute the hit and run well? Do they go 1st to 3rd, take extra bases on throws or score on a groundball to the left side? (Where's the webpage with these stats, Beanecounters?)

Your argument that strikeout pitchers make it easier for fielders is FLAT WRONG.

I have pesonal life experience to prove this.

Check out how many UNearned runs pitchers with high K/9 end up with. Granted it has alot to do with your team, but have you noticed a movement with the Statheads in baseball to put better fielders on the diamond, regardless of how much they strike out as batters? They still make more putouts than strikeouts. Give away less outs and your team will win more often than lose, guaranteed.

When I was a pitcher, I struck out a LOT of batters and had high pitch counts because you can't just throw strikes to strike batters out, you have to get them to chase pitches as well.

But do you know what happened during these high pitch count at-bats? The fielders fell into the lull of waiting for me to strikeout EVERY batter, then when the ball does get put into play, they were caught off guard, or the ball was hit so hard, they couldn't field it cleanly... errors galore. When my buddy who threw puss pitched (for the same team/fielders) the fielders KNEW they had to make plays, so they were ready to make plays. I led my league in Unearned runs every year.

Keep in mind this simple baseball adage that sums up the entire game

I believe Warren Spahn is credited with this, but it's probably older than him...Great Hitting is timing, Great Pitching is disrupting timing.

(My favorite pitch ever is the 3-2 changeup.)

That's my argument about K's... they're 'sexy' (the cliche of 2006), fans love 'em, no one puts FC's up instead of K's inside the stadium, but they're just 1/27th of a 9 inning victory (most of the time)

What out is most effective?

As far as what is the MOST effective out... I would argue it is the Infield Fly rule, no one reaches base, no one can advance. Doesn't get any cleaner than that, my friends.

Second - Foul Pop Out. There is NO way a batter can EVER reach base on a caught foul ball. Even if the fielder drops it... just a foul ball.

Third - Fan interference - Fan reaches ino the field of play, automatic out and no one can advance (a call that gets blown more than any other - Jeffrey Maier, Steve Bartman) Oh, yeah the Diamondbacks LOST a game on a fan interfence the other day.

Then there's runner's interference, runner getting hit by a batted ball, a pickoff (requires NO pitch!), how's about caught stealing? that's a good one! If a runner runs into or passes another runner on the basepaths, etc..

A line out double/triple play (gets TWO or THREE outs in ONE play, amazing!) to an infielder, ground ball double play on and on...

I feel safe saying, these types of outs matter more than the strikeout.

Yes, strikeouts get batters out. But they aren't as important to a pitcher's success as you think... how many bases have been stolen on a 3rd strike? How many guys reach base on a 3rd strike wild pitch?

Strikeouts require more pitches, not just all fastballs either, so they wear out pitcher's arms faster as well. (Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Pedro Martinez, on and on) So I ask you are strikeouts REALLY worth more?

Tommy John was somewhat a strikeout pitcher before his infamous surgery, yet he went on to powder puff his way to a pretty lengthy career by NOT relying on the strikeout... Jamie Moyer is a pretty soft tosser, Frank Tanana was a pretty effective change of pace pitcher...Al Leiter, Kenny Rogers on and on.. successs can be had without the Strikeout (unless your name is Russ Ortiz, hee hee).

I'm not suggesting a pitcher is ever going to record 20 pop outs in a game or throw a 27 pitch perfect game, but pound-for-pound, there are BETTER ways to see how good a pitcher is than by looking at strikeouts. Otherwise, it would be the Nolan Ryan Award, not the Cy Young Award (Funny how Nolan Ryan never won the Cy, maybe it's because baseball writers used to know baseball first, journalism second and they kept the K in perspective)

To sum it up, it's more important to throw strikes than strikeouts.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you ever played the game of baseball/softball/wiffle ball/tee ball (other than on a video console, where the things that happen in real life don't happen).


Date

Wed 08/30/06, 7:26 am EST


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
Bball3345Draft Pick
1187 days ago
Score 1+-
Will you please tell me when/where I said strikeout pitchers tend to be control pitchers?
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1187 days ago
Score 0+-
I guess you said it somehwere around where you said Jermaine Dye was the leading AL MVP candidate... but I never said you said it. I said 'strikeout pitcher' DOESN'T mean 'control pitcher' and that strikeout pitchers put on more free baserunners than control pitchers, THUS hurting their effectiveness and success.
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1187 days ago
Score 0+-
Also, I respectfully disagree with DNL on the point he made on the earlier post:

"The thing is that once the bat hits the ball, the pitcher has no control over where it goes. If you can get a guy out without him hitting it, you're eliminating that variable. So a K is more important, from a pitching perspective, than any other out."

Generally, it IS in the pitcher's control WHERE the ball meets the bat - low pitches get beaten into the ground, high pitches go flying through the air, inside pitches saw off bats and outside pitches get fouled off. This doesn't even take into account pitch movement, which due to gravity and air resistance makes a pitch follow a non-linear trajectory.

From the pitcher's perspective, I'll take a one pitch pop out over a 3 to infinity pitch strikeout; it took me a long time to learn that.

And am I the only one here that has ever read and understood "The Physics of Baseball"?
Permalink | Reply
DNLLegend
1187 days ago
Score 4+-
It really isn't. They have some control over it, but the last actor is the batter.
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Anonymous Fanatic #1
1187 days ago
Score -1+-
fair enough. After I posted that, Yogi Berra and Vlad guerrero popped into my head... it doesn't matter where the pitch is with some guys. But the batter doesn't truly control it either, so let's chalk this one up (and almost everything else) to chaos theory?
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1187 days ago
Score -1+-
^^^ I'm am having a bad week with computers... =(
Permalink
Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
1187 days ago
Score -1+-
In response to Manny's first paragraph - (1) Statistics do not prove anything, they merely suggest. (2) Statistics show how good a player was, not how good a player is. Hence, people shouldn't pay too much attention to them.
Permalink | Reply
Bball3345Draft Pick
1187 days ago
Score 2+-
ok, then i guess i'll take womack over utley, because i don't believe the stats. Womack's got intangibles!!!
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1187 days ago
Score -2+-
You mean as a strikeout pitcher, right?

Stats are past performance and past performance does not ensure future results.

Yes, I would take Tony Blomack's intangibles anyday(It's called a World Series Ring - if you remember Blomack IMPROBABLY started the 9th inning Game 7 rally in 2001).
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1187 days ago
Score 0+-
You're only as good as your last at-bat
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
1187 days ago
Score 1+-
You would take Womack over Utley? And I'm the one losing my credibility?
Permalink
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1187 days ago
Score 0+-
Obviously, I love Tony Blomack... note the career-descriptive way I spell his name.

But I would always take a Ring over none... Give me Darko Milicic's Rookie Year over Charles Barkley's career ANY DAY! Darko doesn't have to say a word to shut Chuckster up, just needs to lift his ringclad finger...

You haven't lost credibility completely... You keep arguing with me and you'll learn some things, youngster! I LOVE ArmchairGM!
Permalink
Alex HolowczakHall of Famer
1187 days ago
Score 1+-
If you're going to make a thing linking arguing articles, you really need to turn this into a Showdown...
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1187 days ago
Score 0+-
no Showdown on this one (although I AM undefeated in Showdowns), I've said my piece/peace... the whole article linking box thing is beyond my abilities at this point, but it DOES look nice!
Permalink
Bball3345Draft Pick
1187 days ago
Score 0+-
Thanks, it was DNL's idea.
Permalink
ASwaffAll-American
1187 days ago
Score 1+-
What is WHIP/9? That's not a stat I'm familiar with. If WHIP is walks+hits per inning pitched, wouldn't the "/9" be redundant? Or, at least, would you multiply it by 9 to figure out how many hits plus walks they're giving up on average every nine innings?
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1187 days ago
Score 0+-
it's a new stat that I made up that means Why the Hell am I Posting 9 freeking comments per article. One of these days, I'm going to stop adding comments
Permalink
ASwaffAll-American
1187 days ago
Score 0+-
Haha...that makes more sense.
Permalink
SashaDiv-I Stud
1187 days ago
Score 0+-
How dare you mention the name Ortiz. I can never look at you again (which shouldn't be to hard).
Permalink | Reply
The sharkDraft Pick
1186 days ago
Score 0+-
Obviously, strikeouts DO matter. This is one of the most asinine article I've ever read on this site! WTF? Strikeouts don't matter!?? Please
Permalink | Reply
Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
1186 days ago
Score 0+-
When did I say they didn't matter? Are they a guaranteed sign of sure success? Hell no! Even IF you struck out 27 batters in a game, you can still lose...

My point was that there are more efficient ways to get outs than striking batters out.

And I've written DOZENS more asinine articles than this one...
Permalink
The sharkDraft Pick
1186 days ago
Score 0+-
I got that they didn't really matter as the jist of your article. Is that not correct?
And I agree whole-heartedly with your final statement, incidentally.
I just chalk it up to "Manny Being Stiles" :)
Permalink
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