armchairgm
all sports, all you
+ Add Friends
You are not logged-in.
Sign Up - Log In
Main Page
Sports
Write
Articles
Hot Links
Images
Meet People
Fun
Explore
MLB - NFL - NBA - NHL - College Basketball - College Football - Soccer - Nascar - Other
Article - Locker Room Discussion
All Articles - New Articles - Today's Articles
Submit a Link - Approve Links
Picture Game - Ratings - Polls - Pick Game - Quiz Game - Spring Silliness
Random Page - Random Image - Random Fan
Edit
Page history Discuss pageWhat links here

A-Rod vs Honus Wagner is it a fair comparison?

10
Vote

by 76.194.212.251

My answer to that is a huge not even in the same league.  Honus Wagner was called by Ty Cobb the greatest player to walk on the baseball diamond.  Well, that was before Ruth came onto the scene, and started hitting everything out of the park.

Wagner did anything and everything ever asked of him on the playing field. Considered by many to be the greatest shortstop in history he could also play outfield and did on occasion during his Pittsburg years. He won only one World Series that being 1909 but led the National league in hitting 8 times. Only Cobb and Gwynn have won more.  2nd player to 3,000 hits and hit .327 lifetime playing from 1897 to 1917.

I never got to see him play because I wasn't born until 1919 but my father and grandfather talked about him for years and I got to know him through them in the late 20's and 30's. Everytime we went to Pittsburg Dad and I with grandpa would spend as much time as we could with Honus and talk baseball for hours upon hours until the wee hours of the morning.  He like most of the older players I got to know later on were very special people.  Almost all to a man were nice, quiet and peaceful individual whose biggest loves were mostly fishing, hunting and baseball but not necessarily in that order.  Honus coached until the late 40's and still was giving his great knowledge to the younger generation even if they didn't play for the Pittsburg Pirates. He could talk about hitting and fielding and ways of playing different players even if he hadn't seen them but a couple of times before.  One summer he and dad got to talking about Ruth and why it seemed all the pitchers weren't too happy to face him. He told us that when Babe was at bat there wasn't any way to really pitch to him or around him except to walk him.  Honus use to say that Babe had the quickest hands he had ever seen.  I asked him about Cobb and he laughed and told me that he didn't want to get into any questions about him because as great as he was he wasn't like by most of the opposing players or team mates.

Dad use to say that Honus was like a smaller Babe and was extremely hard to pitch too because he didn't have any giant weaknesses and could hit anything pitched to him.  During his playing days the pitchers did anything and everything to a baseball before they pitched it. But he must have done something right for 20 years because he had 3415 hits in his major league career.  He was one of the first 5 into the Hall of Fame in 1936 and besides hitting .327 lifetime had 1732 runs batted in.

A-Rod is a great player in his own right but I will go with what my grandpa and father use to tell me about how good Honus Wagner was on the diamond and A-Rod hasn't shown me anywhere near what Wagner did.  Todays' games pitching is extremely watered down and more players are playing today that wouldn't have made it to the big leagues 40 years ago that he is hitting against many pitchers that aren't in the same league as ones Wagner faced in the early 1900-1917's games. Everyone keeps saying you can't compare eras, but I don't entirely agree with that statement.  I have seen players from the 1920's until the present day and player for player it isn't close to the same talent level now as it was then.

I have heard all kinds of people talk for years about that statement and I remember watching the Babe and Lou  and Mel Ott and Jimmy Foxx and many others play and the talent and ability isn't anywhere near the same and that includes some of the players like A-Rod.  Ted Williams didn't have any weaknesses at the plate, but A-Rod can't hit a pitch up and in or low and away with any kind of average.  In the 1930 season I saw a very overweight Babe hit the living you know what out of the pitching in the American league.  1941 Ted Williams hit .406 against the Williams switch. As great as A-Rods' statistics are today he doesn't hold up to anything Honus Wagner put up.  Fielding Wagner by a mile and hitting with the exception of the homeruns Rod is only a close second. Maybe I am wrong but I watch Rod hit and strikeout with much more regularity than Wagner and when Joe Jackson says nobody covers as much ground in the field and Honus Wagner than maybe the younger generations should start looking at what it was like playing without lights, dirty balls, rainy fields and pitchers that could do anything to get you out.


Enable Comment Auto-Refresher
KelsdadAll-Star
870 days ago
Score 0+-
The oldest man is a wise man indeed. I agree totally.
Permalink | Reply
LocknessmonsterDraft Pick
870 days ago
Score 0+-
Hitting was so much more of a skill during Wagner's day than right now, when guys like A-Rod are able to just muscle the ball out of the park. It would be interesting to see what a guy like Wagner might have been able to do if he had the advantages of the live ball, diluted pitching staffs, training methods and nutritional supplements available today. Then again, he might have grown dependent on them and not developed into the same player. It's tough to say.
Permalink | Reply
Yakob878MVP
870 days ago
Score 0+-
its sort of fair but its more not with muscling balls verus skill
Permalink | Reply
Yakob878MVP
870 days ago
Score 0+-
oh
Permalink | Reply
Yakob878MVP
870 days ago
Score 0+-
a and
Permalink | Reply
Yakob878MVP
870 days ago
Score 0+-
sorry and that subtance called STEROIDS and the questions it has created in baseball
Permalink | Reply
IbeargRed-Shirting
870 days ago
Score 0+-
OPS: .963 HR's: 500 Rbi's: 1456 R's: 1460

OPS: .857 HR's: 101 Rbi's 1732 R's: 1736

A-Rod has won gold gloves at SS and probably should win it this year at third, has almost a 100 point higher OPS Will likely end with 7 to 8 times the home runs, will far surpass him in Rbi's and Runs scored. Sorry, i know we like to be nostalgic about the good ole days, but i gotta go with A-Rod.
Permalink | Reply
LocknessmonsterDraft Pick
870 days ago
Score 0+-
The readily available numbers certainly seem to suggest A-Rod is better, but I'd be interested to see how the era-adjusted numbers look. It seems to me that we would need to at least try to adjust for the lower offensive outputs in most statistics from Wagner's era which almost certainly is at least partially a result of seeing better pitching.
Permalink
IbeargRed-Shirting
870 days ago
Score 0+-
I would think the onus would be on others to prove that Wagner's numbers compare to A-rod's by adjusting for whatever factors you feel neccessary. However you can find an attempt to "naturalize" their stats on baseballreference.com... the numbers don't look a whole lot different and A-rod's look very favorable (remembering he's played aprox 8 less years)
Permalink
Silencer76AAA-er
870 days ago
Score 0+-
A Rod won 2 Gold Gloves at short. Who cares? You can't compare that to Wagner, since Gold Gloves were not handed out until 1957. 1732 RBIs in a dead ball era. Perhaps we should break out something similar to the inflated rebounding post and calculate what Wagner's HR and RBI totals would look like in this day and age, or vice versa, before anointing A Rod as being superior.
Permalink | Reply
IbeargRed-Shirting
870 days ago
Score 0+-
I agree you can't use Gold Gloves to compare these guys, but that's not my point. My point is if you want to give credit to Wagner for being a great fielder, you should also give A-Rod credit for being a very good fielder over the course of his career as well. Combine that with the hitting and I'd take A-Rod.
Permalink
The oldest manVarsity
867 days ago
Score 0+-
You can keep talking but I have seen both players play, even through Honus was getting on in his age in the late 20's nobody played a smoother SS and had the arm that Wagner had. Dead ball era unless you saw it you can't comment on it. All those pitchers did anything and everything to the ball to stop the players from hitting it. Ball wasn't as lively then and didn't travel as far and in some of the major league fields the fields were way out there. If Honus had played in this era with this ball it would seem that his stats would be far better than they are. Golden Gloves are so political it isn't even funny anymore so that is a place you can't really go. ARod is a very good fielder and a above average hitter but he does have weaknesses in his swing the biggest being he still can't hit low and away or high in inside. Still gets fooled by slow outside curves and gets into bad habits very quickly. No question about his hitting homeruns but I still look at the level of talent he has been facing these last 7-8 years as far as the pitching goes. If he continues at the present pace he will break Bonds record in 6-7 years. 40 hrs per year is 280 plus his 500 that breaks the steriod record of Bonds. Now the big question is what about A-Rod and steriods did he or didn't he. Looking at his body type right now I would medically say no but if it starts to break down early who knows. He doesn't seem to fit the mentality for drug and steriods use only time with tell.
Permalink | Reply
The oldest manVarsity
867 days ago
Score 0+-
The numbers between the two in some cases don't compare well for Honus. But he was a proven post season player and listening to my father and grandfather who got to see him often there really isn't anyone to compare with him on the field today with the exception of maybe Ozzie in the field. Honus vs ARod is a unfair comparison to both players today or yesterday but if I could have anyone playing SS for my team it would be Honus Wagner just because of the way he played and did things on the field. A real gentleman and honest individual that even after baseball was over for him stayed around for years and helped younger players both on the Pirates and any body that asked for help. I can remember playing pickup games with him when I was in my teens before the second world war and just hitting pepper was an experience you wouldn't forget. Am I bias yes, maybe a little or even a lot, not because of my age but because of the way he played and lived his life in and out of baseball. Somebody asked me a while back was there any younger players that I liked. Yes, one in particular was Wes Parker the first baseman for the Los Angeles Dodgers in the 60's. No better fielder ever played the game than Wes. He did things around the bag that I have never seen before or after. Lou Gehrig was a very great first baseman as were Vic Power, Bill White and many others but believe me that position fielding wise has no comparison with anyone. He did things that defied reason and made plays that nobody has made since or even before. Al Kaline was another outfielder who besides his arm made plays in the outfield worthy of anybody past or present. When Babe first came to the Yankees he use to play around with the opposing players he would seem to misplay a ball hit to him and then fire a strike to the bag with an arm that was in his younger days never passed, maybe equaled on occasion since but never better believe you me. Rocky C from the Cleveland Indians had a arm fairly close to the Babe and Kaline. Roberto Clemente was another in that class. Yes there some really great players playing today and in the last 40 years and it is extremely fun to remember them all and if you ever get the chance to see film footage of them do it and you will see what I remember. Past present and future is what MLB has going for it so I say lets' keep it going 27 outs, 9 innings and highest score wins....
Permalink | Reply
Add your Comment
ArmchairGM welcomes all comments. If you don't want to be anonymous, Register or Login. It's free


Retrieved from "http://armchairgm.wikia.com/A-Rod_vs_Honus_Wagner_is_it_a_fair_comparison%3F"

This page was last modified 17:59, 7 August 2007. Content is available under the GFDL.

Contribute

ArmchairGM's pages can be edited.
Is this page incomplete? Is there anything wrong?
Change it!

Edit this page Discuss this page Page history

Recent contributors to this page

The following people recently contributed to this article.

Embed this on your site

Main Page About Special Pages Help Terms of Use Advertise