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300 Wins: Hall of Fame Benchmark or Meaningless Folly?

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by user Tyduffy

Three hundred wins, like 500 homeruns or 3,000 hits, has become an iconic number in baseball. If you get three hundred wins, that is a guranteed hall of fame birth. It is the justification for the greatness of those who reach it, and it is the first rationalization for keeping out a pitcher who falls just short of the Hall of Fame. It is the first statistic examined when a pitcher's career is taken into perspective. It is taken as dogma by virtually every Hall of Fame voter. The question is why?

Obviously, wins are an important statistic. How your team fared when you were on the mound is quite clearly the most important factor. Racking up numbers and statistics doesn't matter if you don't help your team win. But is it necessarily reliable in determing a player's value?

A pitcher's win total can be affected by factors which are entirely out of his control. Run support is critical. A pitcher can throw a no-hitter, but if his team doesn't score he doesn't get the win. In 2005, Roger Clemens was arguably the best pitcher in the National League, sporting a meager 1.87 ERA, but because Houston's offense was impotent, he only finished with a 13-8 record. Chris Carpenter had an ERA of a run higher, but got run support and finished with a 21-5 record. Was Carpenter really the better pitcher?

Particularly in the modern era, a starting pitcher is also reliant upon his bullpen. The number of blown saves for a starter can have a huge impact on the number of wins a player has. If a pitcher has a great bullpen, he might lose 1-2 games per season due to blown saves. Multiply that over 20 years, that is 30 wins over the course of his career that a pitcher lost due to the incompetence of others. That isn't an insignificant figure. Now say a pitcher has an average bullpen that might lose 3-4 games per year for him, or more. Conservatively, that is 70 wins over the course of his career that he lost. Assume had he had a good bullpen he would have lost 30, so that is a 40 win difference. That's the difference between 240 wins and 280 wins, potentially the difference between in the Hall of Fame and not in the Hall of Fame.

For 300 wins in particular, does it signify an extensive period of greatness? Or, does it mean that someone merely hung around long enough to accrue that many. Nolan Ryan had 205 wins in 1982, his 17th year in the Majors which doesn't exactly wow anyone. However, he pitches another eleven seasons, wins over 14 games only once earning another 119 wins and he's great. Should the difference in how his careeer is assessed really be that he hung around for eleven mediocre seasons and racked up his win total?

Or, look at Tom Glavine. He currently is sitting on 296 wins, and looks pretty assured of getting to 300 and can already start composing his acceptance speech. However, if he retires in 2002, his last truly Hall of Fame caliber season with the Braves, he has 242 wins and is a questionable Hall of Fame candidate. The difference is the 4 1/2 years with the Mets where has gone 54-53? That is what has made him a great pitcher? Not the two Cy Young Awards and 6 20 win seasons. It is the mediocre stretch at the end that has cemented his Hall of Fame candidacy?

How about a pitcher who "hasn't quite gotten there yet" like Curt Schilling. Tim Kurkjian and others have stated that Schilling really needs to pitch two more seasons and win 20 more games to really be a Hall of Famer. Why? Shouldn't it be the 3 20+win seasons and being probably the best Postseason starter ever that gets him in? Why does his historical stature change based on whether or not he limps through a couple more mediocre seasons to get the necessary win total? If he is a great pitcher, he is a great pitcher. Why does he need to run up numbers for the sake of running up numbers?

There are also pitchers that get completely screwed by the number of wins they have. Look at Jack Morris who retired at age 39 with 254 wins. He finished with 15 or more wins in 12 of his 15 full seasons as a starter (and in all 12 seasons where he avoided injury). He won 18 or more games 6 times. He was the dominating go to pitch on three different World Series winning teams. The term "ace" in the dictionary should have his picture next to it. Yet, he most likely will never be voted into the Hall of Fame. If he sticks around for 2 more mediocre seasons and picks up 25 wins, he is probably a shoo-in at 279 wins. Again, why does a pitcher have to rack up meaningless stats to be considered great?

Wins are an important statistic, but also a highly arbitrary one. A pitcher's career win total can be dramatically affected by factors beyond his control. It should certainly be considered, but there is no reason it should be the defining statistic of a pitcher's career. It doesn't seem to denote how great a pitcher was, so much as how long he hung around. His Hall of Fame candidacy should depend on a sustained period of greatness in his prime, not how many wins he can rack up in the twilight of his career.

If none of that convinced you, here is less logical but equally illustrating argument. Your life depends on the outcome of this World Series. You get to pick a four man rotation for your team from one of the following lists of pitchers (in their prime) who pitched in the "modern" era. One list is 300 game winners (or ones who will conceivably get there). The other is the best pitchers who didn't win 300 games.

300 Game Winners: Roger Clemens, Steve Carlton, Greg Maddux, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton, Phil Neikro, Gaylord Perry, Tom Glavine, Randy Johnson

Non 300 Game Winners: Bob Feller, Jack Morris, Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Whitey Ford, Catfish Hunter, Curt Schilling, Pedro Martinez, Sandy Koufax

What list are you picking from?

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KelsdadAll-Star
888 days ago
Score 0+-
Koufax didn't have 200 wins. Matter of fact, he didn't have 170. Now let's see your argument on that one. And Morris' career ERA was well over 4.00, his win total a direct result of run support. Put Morris on the 2005 Astros he would have been 8-13.
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TyduffyRed-Shirting
887 days ago
Score 2+-
Koufax argues for himself. The guy was arguably the best pitcher the game has ever seen for six seasons and retired on top. If Koufax kills his arm and limps through another 4-5 seasons to get up to 220 wins does that make him any greater of a pitcher? Actually, Jack Morris' career ERA was 3.90, which according to my less than astute mathematical mind is under 4.00 but thanks for playing. Part of that was because he had two sub-par seasons at the end of his career. But it also had to deal with what type of pitcher he was as well. He was an innings eater. He went 240 innings ten times during his career. He would often pace himself when the team had a big lead, and perhaps give up an extra run or two, but at the same time throwing 7 or 8 innings instead of 6 and saving the bullpen some work.
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JuTMSY4Legend
887 days ago
Score 7+-
Did you just call Curt Schilling "probably the best Postseason starter ever that gets him in?" He had one good year...one! Hell, I would have even accepted one of the Braves' Big 3...come on Secondly, look at the list of 300 game winners and tell me which one doesn't belong in the hall? They were all great...great pitchers. I'm not saying 300 wins is a cutoff, but it certainly ascerts hall of fame material...
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RomiezzoLegend
887 days ago
Score 0+-
I definitely agree with your statement, yet again. Unless there's a dynasty where the team is about 142-20 every single season, and they have an amazing amount of runs scored every game, it's extremely hard to have 300 wins, especially now, with all of the good teams that are playing and the talent that many teams have now.
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TylersaltAll-Star
887 days ago
Score 1+-
two great years in the postseason... 2004 and 2001
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RomiezzoLegend
887 days ago
Score 1+-
To Tylersalt, Schilling is definitely up there. It's between him, Smoltz, and maybe Pedro..
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
887 days ago
Score 1+-
Schilling's postseason ERA is 2.06. He was great in four starts in '93 with the Phillies, he was lights-out in 2001 with the D-Backs, he had a great start in '02, but the D-Backs lost in the first round, and he was overall very good in his famous 2004 run. I don't know if he's the best postseason starter ever, but he's certainly up there...
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Niteowl049AAA-er
887 days ago
Score 2+-
Have no complaints with Feller being in the Hall of Fame. He missed all of 1942,1943, 1944 seasons and most of 1945 season while serving in World War II.In 1941 his last full season before leaving for war he won 25 games and in 1946 his first full season after the war he won 26 games so it is safe to say he would have won the other 34 games needed for 300 wins. Bert Blyleven is the one that should be in Hall of Fame. Because he was 13 wins short of Hall of Fame he is still on the outside looking in. He pitched for Rangers, Pirates, Twins, Indians and Angels so never got the publicity he needed to garner enough votes for admittance to the Hall of Fame.
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TyduffyRed-Shirting
887 days ago
Score 2+-
Schilling was also pretty damn good in 1993. He was NLCS MVP and pitched a 5 hit Shutout in Game 5 as well. His postseason ERA is also inflated from when he tried to come back in Game 1 of the 2004 ALCS and got shelled. I would challenge you to find someone who's Postseason numbers are significantly better than Schilling.

I never said that winning 300 games was easy, or was not an accomplishment. What I was arguing was that too much emphasis is placed upon it. The Hall of Famers who won 300 games are not necessarily better than the ones who didn't, in most cases they just hung around longer. Guys like Sutton, Neikro, and Perry are second-tier HOFers who don't belong in the same class as a Gibson or Feller.

I don't think Blyleven deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He is the classic case of a compiler. He was never a great pitcher, merely a good one for a number of years. His peers didn't think of him as anything special or he might have made more than 2 All-Star teams. He was only above 7th in Cy Young voting twice, and never higher than 3rd. There was never a time where one would have considered Blyleven one of the elite pitchers in the game. He is a classic case of a guy who is overrated because of his wins.
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JuTMSY4Legend
887 days ago
Score 0+-
Smoltz has a 2.52 career postseason ERA, schill's is 2.06...Schlling has played in 9 post-season games...Smolts has 24...admittedly, a few featured him as a reliever...none the less, he still has well over double the starts schill did in the playoffs... Its a tough call...in 1993, schill pitched well...nothing amazing but very good...her certainly was spectular in 2001...and of course 2004 had its moments...but if we discount schills one bad game...we might as well take smoltz's away as well...
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
887 days ago
Score 1+-
Your numbers are for the number of postseason series they've played in, not the total games pitched. Smoltz has 27 starts and 13 relief appearances, while Schilling has 15 starts.
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JuTMSY4Legend
887 days ago
Score 0+-
my fault...none the less...he still had double the starts schilling did...and almost quadruple the appearences
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Mycue23Waterboy
851 days ago
Score 0+-
Babe Ruth, Mariano Rivera and Whitey Ford. To name three.
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TyduffyRed-Shirting
887 days ago
Score 0+-
How many rings does Smoltz have?
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TyduffyRed-Shirting
887 days ago
Score 0+-
Actually, a better way to phrase it. How many rings did Smoltz win given the number of opportunities he had.
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Kwitt11Varsity Captain
887 days ago
Score 0+-
Who cares? Smoltz isn't even playing in more than half the games the Braves play, so he doesn't have much control over how well the Braves as a team do in the playoffs. This isn't basketball or football, where a player's legacy can be partly determined by how well their team did in the playoffs...
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TheidiotchroniclesWaterboy
887 days ago
Score 0+-
Having 300 wins should never be a guarantee for the HOF. Getting 300 wins is a tribute to being a winner and having longevity. It means you have very good stuff but you need to factor in all other pitching stats and seasons played etc. I think the point made above are valid. Some of the greatest pitches ever are Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson and Bob Feller. And yes they didn't get to 300 wins but look at the quality of the career.
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TyduffyRed-Shirting
887 days ago
Score -1+-
I still don't think Smoltz' numbers are significantly better than Schilling. Smoltz had a number of opportunities, so that his great performances can gloss over his hiccups as a starter in 1995 and 1999. Every single one of Schilling's performances was great except game 1 in the 2004 ALCS when he tried to pitch on the ankle. Throw out that game and he is 8-1 with an ERA under 2. Smoltz was great. Schilling was better.
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KelsdadAll-Star
887 days ago
Score 1+-
And neither is a Hall of Famer.
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Manny StilesMajor Leaguer
887 days ago
Score 0+-
We should not even have to consider the numbers if we are talking about true greatness. I want to take a Tommy John surgeon in my time machine to the past to see what Sandy Koufax could have REALLY done!
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TyduffyRed-Shirting
886 days ago
Score 0+-
Kelsdad, that is exactly what I am arguing about. Why is neither of them a hall of famer? Name me another reason besides number of wins that either of them is not in the hall of fame?
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Mycue23Waterboy
851 days ago
Score 0+-
Simply not dominant enough for long enough. Schilling has had 4 seasons of great production as a starter.
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